Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)

[Who]

It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

I don't agree.

Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:

1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.

2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.

The pick and roll would be very hard for Miami to stop without any rim protection though. Rondo at the top of the key with a double pick from Gortat and Kg would be incredibly difficult to defend. Gortat rolls. KG pops. Go under and Rondo is shooting and he is knocking that shot down ever since the ECF. Go over and Rondo is at the hoop. Pierce and Terry on the perimeter keeping guys honest as well.

We basically incorporate a lot more zone and force James and Wade to hit shots. We get almost anything at the rim on offense. We also likely dominate the boards and slow the game down with more points in the paint.

Have you seem the Heat's Defense? It's not as good. The combination of small ball and the fact that Ray Allen and Reshard Lewis aren't good fits in their defensive system have hurt them a lot.

I think offensively you're on to something, in that Gortat would work very well with our P&R, but your idea about going zone, I don't buy it. People have been trying for years to use the zone to force Wade and LeBron into shooting jumpers. Its never worked consistently. You need an athletic versatile defender to make life tough for LeBron, and you hope Wade or Bosh aren't enough to beat you.

Garnett is athletic and versatile, but he's not athletic or versatile enough  to defend LeBron, and Gortat isn't good enough to D up Bosh.

I'm not arguing that Gortat could help us on offense. I just don't think he'd be a huge help against the Heat. He'd make us a better team, just likely wouldn't work out against the Heat.

Garnett is a superior man-to-man defender against Bosh than Gortat is + a superior team defender off of Bosh than Gortat is.

Garnett will defend Chris Bosh. Gortat will defend Shane Battier or Rashard Lewis. Paul Pierce will stay on LeBron James.

Having Gortat defend Bosh and Garnett defend a three point shooter is the lesser defensive option. Garnett is needed on Bosh and is too valuable defensively to be wasted on a stand still shooter in the corner.

Gortat will not be in a position to provide interior defense and/or defensive rebounding while defending a three point shooter like Shane Battier or Rashard Lewis. I have never seen Gortat try to defend a three point shooter but I am guessing he's going to struggle with it since most bigs of his ilk do.

Gortat will be a valuable interior defender/rebounder (1) while Garnett rests, and, (2) if Spoelstra is dumb enough to go big against Boston, in which case, Gortat will be a game-changing weapon.

[Who]

It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

I don't agree.

Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:

1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.

2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.

1) I think Marcin Gortat is a much better help defender and rim protector than you give him credit for.  This would give Garnett more freedom to roam as a power forward.  If Miami is playing with James and Battier as their 3 and 4, I would put Garnett on Battier and Pierce on James.  Garnett can cover Battier out at the 3 point line and still help out in the paint.  This is what makes him the best help defender in the world. 

2) I'm sure that's true.  That's the case for every player in the NBA matched up against Lebron James regardless of natural position.  James is by far the best player in the league.  That said, KG represents a tougher matchup for James than most.  He has a hard time matching up with KG inside.  The Celtics went to post plays and pick and roll plays with Rondo and Garnett with a lot of success in last year's ECF.  Miami had a really hard time dealing with Garnett. 

If we had a center of Gortat's size and ability we could maximize our size advantage against the likes of Miami.  Going small ball would mean playing KG at center.  This would give us so much more versatility in matching up with all teams in the league, not just the Heat.

Why in the world would Miami put LeBron on Garnett instead of Gortat?

Garnett is one of the most highly skilled seven footers in the world. KG has a strong (if underutilized) post-game and is a brilliant passer. Gortat is a garbage man without an adequate post game and is a limited passer.

Stick LeBron on the limited offensive player and leave Bosh to defend Garnett since Bosh has proven to be their best defensive option against KG.

[More Banners]

I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron.  His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees.  KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.

But can Gortat defend Bosh?

In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.

[Big Rondo]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

[indeedproceed]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

[Big Rondo]

I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron.  His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees.  KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.

But can Gortat defend Bosh?

In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.

Doesn't anyone else remember our best defense against the Heat being the zone? With two seven footers to defend the paint, we turn Miami into jumpshooting team and even more effectively than we did last year. Their shots get taken away from the basket while we pound the ball down low and have Gortat and Garnett shoot straight over their defenders. That plus the fact that the rebound battle is ours for the taking gives us a better chance to win than having ANOTHER body to throw at Wade when Lee, Rondo and Barbosa should be more than capable of limiting him enough.

I keep saying it but what Bradley brings to the table is not going to be enough to change the makeup of this team. We're either title ready now with Bradley giving us a slightly stronger edge in dribble penetration (and that's really the only BIG plus he brings that we cant get from our other guards) OR we aren't title ready and need to make a big improvement to our rebounding and interior presence and thus the need for a player like Gortat to take this team from where it is now to being title ready.

If you honestly believe we are title ready as constructed, more power to you but when I see us give up so many 2nd chance points while getting none for ourselves, my mind thinks different.

[Celtics18]

It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

I don't agree.

Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:

1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.

2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.

1) I think Marcin Gortat is a much better help defender and rim protector than you give him credit for.  This would give Garnett more freedom to roam as a power forward.  If Miami is playing with James and Battier as their 3 and 4, I would put Garnett on Battier and Pierce on James.  Garnett can cover Battier out at the 3 point line and still help out in the paint.  This is what makes him the best help defender in the world. 

2) I'm sure that's true.  That's the case for every player in the NBA matched up against Lebron James regardless of natural position.  James is by far the best player in the league.  That said, KG represents a tougher matchup for James than most.  He has a hard time matching up with KG inside.  The Celtics went to post plays and pick and roll plays with Rondo and Garnett with a lot of success in last year's ECF.  Miami had a really hard time dealing with Garnett. 

If we had a center of Gortat's size and ability we could maximize our size advantage against the likes of Miami.  Going small ball would mean playing KG at center.  This would give us so much more versatility in matching up with all teams in the league, not just the Heat.

Why in the world would Miami put LeBron on Garnett instead of Gortat?

Garnett is one of the most highly skilled seven footers in the world. KG has a strong (if underutilized) post-game and is a brilliant passer. Gortat is a garbage man without an adequate post game and is a limited passer.

Stick LeBron on the limited offensive player and leave Bosh to defend Garnett since Bosh has proven to be their best defensive option against KG.

Miami would have no chance against the pick and roll play if they did that.  Lebron James can do a lot of things, but he can't guard legitimate centers. 

[Big Rondo]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

pssst, this is the part where you are supposed to provide it

And again, I'll simply point to 2008, 2010 and 2011 when Garnett, even coming off an injury, anchored this team at the 4 spot and helped us play our BEST basketball of the Big 3 era. Just because he had a statistically good year playing out of position at the 5 does not mean he can't "effectively" play his natural position after just half a season away from it -- revisionist history at its best!

[Who]

I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron.  His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees.  KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.

But can Gortat defend Bosh?

In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.

Doesn't anyone else remember our best defense against the Heat being the zone? With two seven footers to defend the paint, we turn Miami into jumpshooting team and even more effectively than we did last year. Their shots get taken away from the basket while we pound the ball down low and have Gortat and Garnett shoot straight over their defenders. That plus the fact that the rebound battle is ours for the taking gives us a better chance to win than having ANOTHER body to throw at Wade when Lee, Rondo and Barbosa should be more than capable of limiting him enough.

I keep saying it but what Bradley brings to the table is not going to be enough to change the makeup of this team. We're either title ready now with Bradley giving us a slightly stronger edge in dribble penetration (and that's really the only BIG plus he brings that we cant get from our other guards) OR we aren't title ready and need to make a big improvement to our rebounding and interior presence and thus the need for a player like Gortat to take this team from where it is now to being title ready.

If you honestly believe we are title ready as constructed, more power to you but when I see us give up so many 2nd chance points while getting none for ourselves, my mind thinks different.

The zone defense was very effective against Miami when they were playing with two big men (Bosh + Haslem/Anthony/whoever + 2 slashers in Wade/LeBron) ... but it won't be anywhere near as useful now that Miami has gone small and has spaced out the floor with multiple jump-shooters.

[Celtics18]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

Please provide it. 

[Big Rondo]

I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron.  His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees.  KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.

But can Gortat defend Bosh?

In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.

Doesn't anyone else remember our best defense against the Heat being the zone? With two seven footers to defend the paint, we turn Miami into jumpshooting team and even more effectively than we did last year. Their shots get taken away from the basket while we pound the ball down low and have Gortat and Garnett shoot straight over their defenders. That plus the fact that the rebound battle is ours for the taking gives us a better chance to win than having ANOTHER body to throw at Wade when Lee, Rondo and Barbosa should be more than capable of limiting him enough.

I keep saying it but what Bradley brings to the table is not going to be enough to change the makeup of this team. We're either title ready now with Bradley giving us a slightly stronger edge in dribble penetration (and that's really the only BIG plus he brings that we cant get from our other guards) OR we aren't title ready and need to make a big improvement to our rebounding and interior presence and thus the need for a player like Gortat to take this team from where it is now to being title ready.

If you honestly believe we are title ready as constructed, more power to you but when I see us give up so many 2nd chance points while getting none for ourselves, my mind thinks different.

The zone defense was very effective against Miami when they were playing with two big men (Bosh + Haslem/Anthony/whoever) ... it won't be anywhere near as useful now that Miami has gone small and has spaced out the floor with multiple shooters.

Miami is not jumpshooting their way to a title. Sorry, it just ain't happening. High percentage basketball necessitates scoring points in the paint. I'll take two guys shooting 4 feet away from the basket over smaller defenders every day to a bunch of shooting specialist taking shots 20+ feet away from the basket over guards who can play good defense. The point of the game is to keep them away from the rack and that's what inside presence is for plus it makes 2nd chance points far less likely as the only rebounds they should be getting are the long ones.

[Lightskinsmurf]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

Its really funny to me because im not saying anything about bradley that is ridiculous. Everything im saying can be backed by numbers and actually watching the games and paying attention. Not once did i say bradley is a star. Not once did i say hes MJ 

Not once did i say hes some offensive force. I said hes elite on defense and one of the best defenders in the league. I said our team was one of the best in the league once ab was inserted into the starting lineup and KG moved to center. Is what im saying hype, OR FACT.

[Who]

(1) Garnett is still a really good player at the power forward position. He is a top ten PF. There was some drop-off there as a defender/rebounder due to his declining athlecism but he was and is still one of the best defenders in the league at that position + there was some drop-off offensively but he was still a very potent weapon.

(2) Garnett was and is even better at center where KG was the 2nd best center in the league last year ... because (a) his skill level offensively created more difficult matchups for opponents (b) defensively, Garnett was matched up against slower and less able offensive threats and was situated closer to the basket and more able to provide effective team defense.

(3) I prefer Garnett to play the five than the four but I am perfectly happy switching him back to the four if Boston is able to acquire a quality center. Gortat would certainly fill that requirement. 

[indeedproceed]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

Please provide it.

Well, here is an easy one:

http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos

It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).

[Celtics18]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

Please provide it.

Well, here is an easy one:

http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos

It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).

Actually those numbers do attempt to make a claim about his defense at each position.  If I have read them correctly, it looks like he was more effective defensively at the four.  Opposing fours had a lower PER against him, and his DRating was better at the four.

I know there is a lot of noise and room for interpretation with those stats, but they don't really conclusively prove that he's no longer effective as a power forward.  Your evidence is flimsy at best.