Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksLUyISUV8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqVcDg048M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YNbh7D3Hus

Avery Bradley is one of the best PERIMETER defenders in the league. Obviously KG is the defensive MVP of this team but he's 60 years old and will die if he plays over 30 minutes a game. Bradley is a young stud who can come into a game and turn the energy around by running the floor for easy baskets and picking up the ball full court. I don't know how anybody could argue that.

Marcin Gortat would be a huge help for this team and I'd love to acquire him, but not for Avery Bradley. It's of my opinion that Avery is the difference between the .500 Celtics and the version that possesses on of the leagues deadliest defenses.

How about we keep Ab and get Gortat to help KG down low at times? Find a way to make this trade happen so we can have excellent perimeter D and D in the paint close to the rim.

[BballTim]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

  KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.

[Lightskinsmurf]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

  KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.

I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.

[OsirusCeltics]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

  KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.

I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.

I know right. Rondo the ultimate gambler? lol

[BballTim]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

  KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.

I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.

  No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.

[BudweiserCeltic]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

  KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.

I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.

  No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.

Not because of his awesome on-ball defense, I'll tell you that much.

[BballTim]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

  KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.

I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.

  No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.

Not because of his awesome on-ball defense, I'll tell you that much.

  Go for it. Tell us why the coaches think he's a top level defender and what they think he does poorly.

[BudweiserCeltic]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

  KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.

I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.

  No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.

Not because of his awesome on-ball defense, I'll tell you that much.

  Go for it. Tell us why the coaches think he's a top level defender and what they think he does poorly.

Because he gets a lot of steals, he plays the lanes very well, he's vocal, he's athletic, and don't dismiss the impact him rebounding the ball has on defensive perception. Rebounds is seen as a defensive skill.

For all his strengths, he's never been that good at staying in front of ball-handlers. He's done well enough recovering to make a play from behind, but the cost outweights the benefits on that regard.

I don't see how Rondo is a better on-ball defender than Bradley in any regard.

And honestly, elite defending PGs don't get a lot of playing time in this league.

[BballTim]

People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.

The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ).

There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.

You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.

  KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.

I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.

  No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.

Not because of his awesome on-ball defense, I'll tell you that much.

  Go for it. Tell us why the coaches think he's a top level defender and what they think he does poorly.

Because he gets a lot of steals, he plays the lanes very well, he's vocal, he's athletic, and don't dismiss the impact him rebounding the ball has on defensive perception. Rebounds is seen as a defensive skill.

For all his strengths, he's never been that good at staying in front of ball-handlers. He's done well enough recovering to make a play from behind, but the cost outweights the benefits on that regard.

I don't see how Rondo is a better on-ball defender than Bradley in any regard.

And honestly, elite defending PGs don't get a lot of playing time in this league.

  Rondo does a fine job of staying in front of his man, they generally wait for someone to set a pick before they try and get past him. I don't see a lot of players doing better than him. That includes Bradley, who pressures the ball well but sometimes gets beat because his ball pressure puts him out of position.

  It's kind of silly to claim that elite defending PGs don't get a lot of playing time, those are people who don't have to work at that level for 35 minutes a game or worry about foul trouble. Compare Rondo to other point guards getting a decent amount of minutes and he does fine.

[wdleehi]

Rondo has the skills to be that top defender, but doesn't always play that way.  Spends more time trying to poke away from behind.


One more reason to get another big man.  It gives Rondo more freedom to do that with better lane defense down low. 

[mgent]

Because he gets a lot of steals, he plays the lanes very well, he's vocal, he's athletic, and don't dismiss the impact him rebounding the ball has on defensive perception. Rebounds is seen as a defensive skill.

If those are the criteria then what made him beat out Russell Westbrook, a guy who is FAR more athletic, averaged equal steals and rebounds while playing in every game (13 more than Rondo), is also vocal, and is even better than Thabo Sefolosha (a superior defender) at playing the lanes in a defensive system that focuses on such?

Why did Rondo receive 11 second team votes and 9 first team team votes and Westbrook only had 9 second and 1 first?

Why has Rondo been selected to 2 first teams and 2 second teams and Westbrook has never come close when he averages .3 more rebounds and .3 less assists (career) and is the most athletic PG in the league?

[CFAN38]

Im really torn as to what I would do with AB or Gortat.  At first i was 100% up for an AB for Gortat trade. However the more i think about it ABs skill set may actually be harder to find than gortats.

For those who think Rondo is a better defender then AB, you are mistaken. Rondo is a better rebounder and is better at getting steals but pure on ball D AB is noticeably better. Just compare how Rondo and AB focus on their man and fight threw picks.

With the NBA being a guards league ABs D will be a god sent for years to come.

I would try for a Bass + Lee + Pick for Milsap trade. Milsap would give better D and rebounding to the starting lineup. 

[BballTim]

Rondo has the skills to be that top defender, but doesn't always play that way.  Spends more time trying to poke away from behind.

  He tries to poke the ball free when that's his only option, usually when his man goes past a pick and Rondo's behind him.

[sdceltsfan]

The one crucial point that has hardly been touched on in this discussion is Bradley's injury status.

Two bum shoulders at his age. Not one. Two. Anyone who's ever had shoulder surgery and tried to play basketball (let alone at the professional level), will tell you how difficult is it to harness your game. He already wasn't the strongest shooter; he's missed a lot of time (without handling or shooting because of the injury), and he's waaaay too young to already have problematic shoulders.

This will be an issue for Bradley for the rest of his career, mark these words.

Even as a superior perimeter and man defender, he will have to adjust the physicality of his game, and the range of motion in his arms will be slower and limited, no matter what any doctor tells you. Your shoulder is the only joint in your body that does "180 degree" (depending on one's flexibility) ranges of motion; this also makes it one of the more easily compromised joints in the body. Bradley is what? 23, 24? Younger?

Unfortunately, HE WILL NOT LAST, and we may never see him at the level he was playing last season.

With that said, our lack of scoring and post-defenders down low is also an issue on this team, aside from everyone's fixation on "Welll durrrrr, who's gunna guard Wade??"

We don't have Bradley now to guard Wade, who's to say and guarantee when he returns, that he will be performing at that level???

If we can get a SOLID scoring and defending big man like Gortat,
WHO WILL START, why on Earth are we questioning a package that features a severely INJURED Avery Bradley, maybe one other player, and a draft pick?

A package of Bradley, Kris Joseph, and either a 1st or 2nd rounder is about what it's taking?

We have to be all over that. Use your heads guys! If the Suns want to get trade raped again by us (Rondo reference), then let them do it!

[pearljammer10]

For me Bradley = Lee and Bass = Sully.

I think for either positions, one is not much better than the other, they both give us similar game play, both give us similar production, and both are redundant to our team. Bradley is only two or three years younger than Lee, his ceiling is high but with his injuries who knows what will happen. Bass is older than Sully and I think Sully has more promise and a higher ceiling then anyone.

For me, I first offer Bradley, filler and picks. Which will be denied. My second offer consists of Bradley, Bass, and picks. If the prefer Lee and Bass even better but I think Bradley will be a top a lot of GMs wishlists if they are dealing with the Celtics.

In the end, for me, and for this team currently, any big man (Gortat, Smith, Varejo, even Dalembert) is > Bradley.