Author Topic: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....  (Read 3521 times)

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Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2012, 10:27:05 AM »

Offline alajet

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The thing that may stop Danny going after Gortat is the fact that having Bass out there means we have multiple jumpshooting threats in the paint.

Bringing in Gortat eliminates Bass from the starting line up  (because he'll be traded or probably be relegated to the bench).
This ruins much of our strategy of stretching the opposing teams bigs and opening up the paint for Rondo to penetrate or make easy passes to backdoor cutters like Avery Bradley or Jeff Green.

I'd bet you would also fail to hide your frustration when that jumpshooting team plays a 40% FG game and loses inexplicably.
I'd also bet that you would also feel something is wrong when a team somehow manages to never challenge the offensive rebounds (not getting them isn't a big deal, but the problem is, we aren't even forcing the opposing players out of their comfort).

KG alone spaces out enough. Honestly, I'm not that much into the idea of spreading five shooters throughout outside the paint zone and see what happens.
Because if you don't have someone finishing up at the rim, what point is in spreading the floor?
If you have an inside presence, your opponent will also try to cover the paint, opening up even more space outside for your shooters.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2012, 11:42:47 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration

So you think that Danny and Doc would rather steer towards the pick n roll starting five with Rondo dishing?
Remember there's much less room for Rondo to operate in the paint with Gortat in there than Bass moving out to 15 feet and taking his defender with him. I'm not saying this won't work. It worked very well with Shaq getting easy lay off's from Rondo.
But has Rondo become a better player with more space in the paint to work with?

Remember it's also not just about offense, it's about Kevin Garnett on the defensive end. How does KG go against Ibaka in a 7 game finals series?
Would we rather have Josh Smith on Ibaka and KG on Perk?
Or Smith on Amare and KG on Chandler?

I think Smith is a better all round defender than Gortat.
Who would be better against the Heat? Gortat or Smith? You could make arguments for both.
I just want people to weight the Smith vs Gortat debate up on both ends of the floor because most of the stuff I've seen really only implies offense.

Rondo makes both of them look good too- better than they currently look for sure.

Going back to offense, I think part of Rondo's ability to flourish into the assist king of the NBA is the space that our KG/Bass offense gives him.

You are completely missing the point.

Just because Gortat is our 5, doesn't mean he has to defend the other teams 5. 

When we played Miami (before Nosh started to play center) Doc would cross match with KGon Bosh and Bass on Joel Anthony (because he's not an offensive threat).

We could very easilly start Gortat at 5 but put him on Ibaka, and start KG at the 4 and put him on,Perk.  There is no NBA rule stating that you must matchup with the same positions.

Initially I was very much on the "Josh smith over Gortat" bandwagon, but the more I think about it the more I think Gortat is better for us.

Firstly Josh Smith will not likely come in the future for any less than a max contract.  Even his current contract is quite large.  We'd need to send Green and Bass/Lee just to match contracts, and we'd probably need to include Bradley too to make them bite.  If we get him hell take up major cap space, and we really don't know how good he's going to get.  Gortat is only on 7.5M for the next couple of years, and that's q bargain for a guy who's capable of averaging 15/10/2.5 in the right system.  To get him we'd not need to lose Green - the contract is small enough that Lee or Bass on their own is almost enough to match.  Phoenixo think are more desperate to ditch him, while Atlanta seem content to hold on to Smith until a great offer cones their way. That all means we can prob get Gortat for a,lot,less.

Next theres size.  Smith is athletic but he's only 6'9".  Having KG + Gortat gives us two 6'11" guys on the floor at the same time.  I can see Doc playing small with Josh Smith spending time at Center - no fear of that with Gortat out there.  I also see lebron/battier defending Smith easier then they could Gortat, who could shoot straight over guys like that the way people do to Bass now.

As for jump shots, last I heard Smith was shooting about 30% from midrange - you really want him taking shots to dare people ?

Finally I have no problem with KG defending PF's.  So far this season I've seen him switch out on guards and SF's and he was able to put pressure on them and stick with them mist the time.  A PF (outside of LeBron) should really be no problem for him.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2012, 11:54:08 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Gortat looks to be on the market.


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Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2012, 01:41:55 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Other teams have figured out the C's especially on D, we need a change to raise the ante.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2012, 02:19:24 PM »

Offline Celticfankb

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I agree. I think Josh Smith is the logical choice. KG is our center, therefore why do we need another Center? My question to those who want Gortat is who will start at the 4 spot? Lebron and Carmelo run the 4 spot now. The league has changed. KG can not guard the 4 spot for 30 mins. Josh Smith gives us a guy who can.
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Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2012, 02:19:40 PM »

Offline RJ87

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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.

Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.

Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.

Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.
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Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2012, 03:37:28 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.

Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.

Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.

Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.

I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum.  Personally, I really like his game.  Like most players he's got some flaws, though.  Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation.  He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum.  That part scares me off.

Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.

As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team.  He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder.  I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front.  I think that would instantly improve our defense. 

Offensively, he's a good pick and roller.  He can hit the jump shot serviceably.  He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.

On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range.  When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat. 


Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2012, 03:45:38 PM »

Offline Who

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Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
I don't see Josh Smith as anchor-type defender. More someone who plays off an anchor. An out and out forward who should be placed alongside a big man with legitimate size, a center.

I would liken Josh Smith as a shot-blocker like Kirilenko rather than a Jermaine O'Neal. I wouldn't talk about Smith as an anchor. A shot-blocking threat but not an anchor ... not sure I am making myself clear there. 


Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.

I completely agree - Josh Smith is a much better player for Boston on both ends of the court.

Having a PF with his quickness and athleticism who is a disruptive as Smith is on team defense would be incredible alongside the defensive talent already here. They would be able to create turnovers at an incredible clip and have exceptional defensive versatility in terms of matching up against different types of offensive systems.

s would his all-round game offensively (ball-handling, passing, face up game, post game, jump-shot, can get to the FT line, transition baskets, PnR) vs a very limited big man in Marcin Gortat who is just a finisher off the pick and roll and around the rim.

A better rebounding unit too if drilled properly -- J.Smith (PF) and KG (C) is better at boxing out + better attacking offensive boards than a slower less agile big man duo of KG (PF) and Gortat (C). Their quickness relative to their opponents being their main asset.

Josh Smith is way, way better than Marcin Gortat + is the much better fit in this Boston team.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2012, 03:48:46 PM »

Offline Who

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Gortat is going to command $13-15 million per annum on his next contract at this rate.

I wouldn't get caught up in the financial differences between Smith and Gortat. Gortat is not going to be on that bargain contract for much longer.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2012, 03:49:53 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Definitely smith over gortat but gortat will be easier to get.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2012, 03:56:11 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.

Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.

Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.

Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.

I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum.  Personally, I really like his game.  Like most players he's got some flaws, though.  Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation.  He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum.  That part scares me off.

Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.

As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team.  He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder.  I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front.  I think that would instantly improve our defense. 

Offensively, he's a good pick and roller.  He can hit the jump shot serviceably.  He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.

On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range.  When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.

I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.

Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.

Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.

He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.

Josh Smith is a cornerstone.

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Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2012, 04:08:14 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.

Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.

Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.

Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.

I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum.  Personally, I really like his game.  Like most players he's got some flaws, though.  Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation.  He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum.  That part scares me off.

Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.

As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team.  He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder.  I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front.  I think that would instantly improve our defense. 

Offensively, he's a good pick and roller.  He can hit the jump shot serviceably.  He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.

On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range.  When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.

I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.

Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.

Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.

He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.

Josh Smith is a cornerstone.

His numbers are down this year with the loss of Nash, but if he came to Boston, he'd have Rondo as his point guard to make life easy for him.  He may not get a ton of touches on this team, but adding him would really make us hard to defend. 

By the way, he was ranked as a top five center in the league last year according to player efficiency.  His numbers are down this year with no Nash, but he's still in the top ten and currently putting up better numbers than Smith. 

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2012, 04:21:15 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.

Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.

Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.

Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.

I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum.  Personally, I really like his game.  Like most players he's got some flaws, though.  Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation.  He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum.  That part scares me off.

Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.

As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team.  He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder.  I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front.  I think that would instantly improve our defense. 

Offensively, he's a good pick and roller.  He can hit the jump shot serviceably.  He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.

On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range.  When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.

I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.

Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.

Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.

He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.

Josh Smith is a cornerstone.

His numbers are down this year with the loss of Nash, but if he came to Boston, he'd have Rondo as his point guard to make life easy for him.  He may not get a ton of touches on this team, but adding him would really make us hard to defend. 

I agree and disagree with this. Gortat would add another dimension, and would be useful. His numbers with Nash were so good because Nash didn't have another pick and roll option. Everyone else who was remotely an option (Channing Frye, Jared Dudley, etc..) was best served as a spot up shooter.

In Boston Gortat would be a 3rd or 4th option, which isn't a bad thing, but he still wouldnt be getting the touches he got with Nash. His efficiency might go up though.

Quote
By the way, he was ranked as a top five center in the league last year according to player efficiency.  His numbers are down this year with no Nash, but he's still in the top ten and currently putting up better numbers than Smith.

Their PER's were nearly identical last year. The difference was that Marcin Gortat had Steve Nash, Josh Smith had...Joe Johnson as the best playmaker?

Your argument for Gortat's improved play is also applicable to Smith, then factor in that Smith's defensive rebound rate, as a combo forward, was nearly identical to Gortat's. Also Josh Smith is a much better defender, and plays to our team's strengths and needs better (allowing Garnett to play center, better rim defender, better transition player, etc..).

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Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2012, 04:28:21 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.

Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.

Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.

Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.

I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum.  Personally, I really like his game.  Like most players he's got some flaws, though.  Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation.  He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum.  That part scares me off.

Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.

As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team.  He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder.  I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front.  I think that would instantly improve our defense. 

Offensively, he's a good pick and roller.  He can hit the jump shot serviceably.  He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.

On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range.  When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.

I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.

Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.

Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.

He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.

Josh Smith is a cornerstone.

His numbers are down this year with the loss of Nash, but if he came to Boston, he'd have Rondo as his point guard to make life easy for him.  He may not get a ton of touches on this team, but adding him would really make us hard to defend. 

I agree and disagree with this. Gortat would add another dimension, and would be useful. His numbers with Nash were so good because Nash didn't have another pick and roll option. Everyone else who was remotely an option (Channing Frye, Jared Dudley, etc..) was best served as a spot up shooter.

In Boston Gortat would be a 3rd or 4th option, which isn't a bad thing, but he still wouldnt be getting the touches he got with Nash. His efficiency might go up though.

Quote
By the way, he was ranked as a top five center in the league last year according to player efficiency.  His numbers are down this year with no Nash, but he's still in the top ten and currently putting up better numbers than Smith.

Their PER's were nearly identical last year. The difference was that Marcin Gortat had Steve Nash, Josh Smith had...Joe Johnson as the best playmaker?

Your argument for Gortat's improved play is also applicable to Smith, then factor in that Smith's defensive rebound rate, as a combo forward, was nearly identical to Gortat's. Also Josh Smith is a much better defender, and plays to our team's strengths and needs better (allowing Garnett to play center, better rim defender, better transition player, etc..).

Well, I don't agree with the better rim defender part.  Also, I'm not sure why you (as well as a number of others) seem so dead set against moving KG back to the four. 

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2012, 04:35:40 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.

Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.

Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.

Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.

I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum.  Personally, I really like his game.  Like most players he's got some flaws, though.  Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation.  He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum.  That part scares me off.

Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.

As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team.  He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder.  I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front.  I think that would instantly improve our defense. 

Offensively, he's a good pick and roller.  He can hit the jump shot serviceably.  He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.

On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range.  When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.

I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.

Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.

Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.

He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.

Josh Smith is a cornerstone.

His numbers are down this year with the loss of Nash, but if he came to Boston, he'd have Rondo as his point guard to make life easy for him.  He may not get a ton of touches on this team, but adding him would really make us hard to defend. 

I agree and disagree with this. Gortat would add another dimension, and would be useful. His numbers with Nash were so good because Nash didn't have another pick and roll option. Everyone else who was remotely an option (Channing Frye, Jared Dudley, etc..) was best served as a spot up shooter.

In Boston Gortat would be a 3rd or 4th option, which isn't a bad thing, but he still wouldnt be getting the touches he got with Nash. His efficiency might go up though.

Quote
By the way, he was ranked as a top five center in the league last year according to player efficiency.  His numbers are down this year with no Nash, but he's still in the top ten and currently putting up better numbers than Smith.

Their PER's were nearly identical last year. The difference was that Marcin Gortat had Steve Nash, Josh Smith had...Joe Johnson as the best playmaker?

Your argument for Gortat's improved play is also applicable to Smith, then factor in that Smith's defensive rebound rate, as a combo forward, was nearly identical to Gortat's. Also Josh Smith is a much better defender, and plays to our team's strengths and needs better (allowing Garnett to play center, better rim defender, better transition player, etc..).

Well, I don't agree with the better rim defender part.  Also, I'm not sure why you (as well as a number of others) seem so dead set against moving KG back to the four.

Well Josh Smith as a 3/4 had the 13th best BLK% in the NBA last year among guys with 50 games started. Gortat was 15th.

Josh Smith was the best rim defender on the 13th best defense in the NBA. Gortat was the best rim defender on the 21st best defense (according to OPP FG%).

Those are just the easy numbers to look up. For deeper stuff, you need to look hard, but the numbers basically back it up.

As far as KG at the 5, we play better with him there.

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