Author Topic: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....  (Read 7354 times)

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The thing that may stop Danny going after Gortat is the fact that having Bass out there means we have multiple jumpshooting threats in the paint.

Bringing in Gortat eliminates Bass from the starting line up  (because he'll be traded or probably be relegated to the bench).
This ruins much of our strategy of stretching the opposing teams bigs and opening up the paint for Rondo to penetrate or make easy passes to backdoor cutters like Avery Bradley or Jeff Green.

It's why this Bradley for Gortat rumor is probably over rated and Doc and Danny are deciding whether or not they want KG to play the power forward position and if his body can handle the work involved in guarding the other elite PF's in the league.

Ie: against OKC because Gortat would be on Perk KG would be guarding Ibaka instead of Perkins- which is a much tougher defensive assignment and takes up loads more of KG's energy which we'll need deep in the fourth quarter on help defense protecting the rim.

It's a big gamble and it's why we might see Danny prefer to wait until we can trade the pieces to go after Josh Smith simply because it keeps KG at the center position where he's comfortable for the rest of his career.

I think we are going to see Danny throw everything at the Hawks to get Smith around All Star break. I mean EVERYONE is up for grabs that isn't named Rondo, Pierce, KG or Green. If we can't work something out with Atlanta and we are looking like we really need that inside presence then Danny may go after Gortat (pick n roll ability), and then finally Verajao (defensive ability). In fact Verajao is probably the farthest from the picture because of his lack of offensive ability and the fact that our style of defense will really hinder his offensive rebounding abilities. Even Millsap is more likely than Verajao with our style of play.

In my opinion we need some kind of offensive replacement if we are moving Bass in a deal because he just gives us too much production with that jumpshot. Not just points wise but our ability to double-stretch the floor just has such a huge influence on opposing defenses and where we want to be come playoff time. Josh Smith may not be the best shooter, but he's okay when he's left wide open, and defenders must go out to him because if he gets a first step on his defender to the basket they are 99% getting dunked on. Factor that in with KG needing to stay at center particularly on defense, and it makes you re-think the Gortat situation.
Or I could be completely wrong :)
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline Celtics18

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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.
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SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.

Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and  honor him.

Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline Celtics18

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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.

Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and  honor him.

Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?

Feeling snarky?

Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open.  I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though.  No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor.  He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game. 

I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs."  I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.

This is just my two cents, though.  No need to get testy.   
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

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SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.

Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and  honor him.

Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?

Feeling snarky?

Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open.  I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though.  No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor.  He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game. 

I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs."  I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.

This is just my two cents, though.  No need to get testy.

It's perfectly reasonable for me to get snarky if you're going to criticize someones post without reading the whole thing.

Don't highlight problems with theories if you're not going to read the whole theory lol.

My point is that Josh Smith next to KG means KG can guard Perkins and not Ibaka but with Gortat he'll have to guard Ibaka.

Smith is still a threat on the perimeter because he has an inside out game that requires attention when he's on the perimeter and with Celtics screening so much defenders can't hang off him.

Gortat has a 100% interior game which is opposite to Bass who has much of his game on the 10-15 foot jumpshot whereas Gortat relies on the pick and roll, particularly the roll- more than any of our current bigs, so we'd have to change our offense to cater to that. This change may affect Rondos ability to pass as easily because KG and Bass give us so much interior spacing on offense.

Who knows, we may actually be better running more pick and roll with Gortat rather than Bass but it means we'll have to change our style and teams will be able to help on KG shooting the 15 footer much more (in my opinion).

I think Smith's game is more suited to the style we're trying to achieve than Gortat's. I still don't think Gortat would be a bad pick up but I just think he's option number 2 at the moment.
As I said, I could be completely wrong and would like to see what others think.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline pearljammer10

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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration

Offline Celtics18

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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.

Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and  honor him.

Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?

Feeling snarky?

Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open.  I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though.  No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor.  He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game. 

I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs."  I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.

This is just my two cents, though.  No need to get testy.

It's perfectly reasonable for me to get snarky if you're going to criticize someones post without reading the whole thing.

Don't highlight problems with theories if you're not going to read the whole theory lol.

My point is that Josh Smith next to KG means KG can guard Perkins and not Ibaka but with Gortat he'll have to guard Ibaka.

Smith is still a threat on the perimeter because he has an inside out game that requires attention when he's on the perimeter and with Celtics screening so much defenders can't hang off him.

Gortat has a 100% interior game which is opposite to Bass who has much of his game on the 10-15 foot jumpshot whereas Gortat relies on the pick and roll, particularly the roll- more than any of our current bigs, so we'd have to change our offense to cater to that. This change may affect Rondos ability to pass as easily because KG and Bass give us so much interior spacing on offense.

Who knows, we may actually be better running more pick and roll with Gortat rather than Bass but it means we'll have to change our style and teams will be able to help on KG shooting the 15 footer much more (in my opinion).

I think Smith's game is more suited to the style we're trying to achieve than Gortat's. I still don't think Gortat would be a bad pick up but I just think he's option number 2 at the moment.
As I said, I could be completely wrong and would like to see what others think.

Offensively, I think that KG and Gortat would be an excellent pairing.  It's not true that Gortat has "a 100% interior game."  He can actually hit a jumper on pick and pops, but I agree that he is better as a "roller."  That's not a problem for me when you have Garnett as the "popper."  Let me remind you that this team played some of its best ball over the course of the last five years with the likes of Shaquille O'Neal and Kendrick Perkins at the center.  These are not guys who provided spacing on offense. 

Defensively, I simply don't have a problem with KG guarding 4s.  Even at the ripe old age of 36, he's still a very agile and very quick seven footer.  That doesn't worry me at all. 

I'm not a guy who thinks we desperately need to make a trade to be contender, but I am very high on Marcin Gortat, and would love to be able to land him for the present as well as for the foreseeable future.

I like Smith, too, but the size of his contract, his impending free agency, and his tendency to fall in love with bad shots all make me a little apprehensive about trading for him. 
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration

So you think that Danny and Doc would rather steer towards the pick n roll starting five with Rondo dishing?
Remember there's much less room for Rondo to operate in the paint with Gortat in there than Bass moving out to 15 feet and taking his defender with him. I'm not saying this won't work. It worked very well with Shaq getting easy lay off's from Rondo.
But has Rondo become a better player with more space in the paint to work with?

Remember it's also not just about offense, it's about Kevin Garnett on the defensive end. How does KG go against Ibaka in a 7 game finals series?
Would we rather have Josh Smith on Ibaka and KG on Perk?
Or Smith on Amare and KG on Chandler?

I think Smith is a better all round defender than Gortat.
Who would be better against the Heat? Gortat or Smith? You could make arguments for both.
I just want people to weight the Smith vs Gortat debate up on both ends of the floor because most of the stuff I've seen really only implies offense.

Rondo makes both of them look good too- better than they currently look for sure.

Going back to offense, I think part of Rondo's ability to flourish into the assist king of the NBA is the space that our KG/Bass offense gives him.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.

Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and  honor him.

Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?

Feeling snarky?

Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open.  I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though.  No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor.  He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game. 

I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs."  I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.

This is just my two cents, though.  No need to get testy.

It's perfectly reasonable for me to get snarky if you're going to criticize someones post without reading the whole thing.

Don't highlight problems with theories if you're not going to read the whole theory lol.

My point is that Josh Smith next to KG means KG can guard Perkins and not Ibaka but with Gortat he'll have to guard Ibaka.

Smith is still a threat on the perimeter because he has an inside out game that requires attention when he's on the perimeter and with Celtics screening so much defenders can't hang off him.

Gortat has a 100% interior game which is opposite to Bass who has much of his game on the 10-15 foot jumpshot whereas Gortat relies on the pick and roll, particularly the roll- more than any of our current bigs, so we'd have to change our offense to cater to that. This change may affect Rondos ability to pass as easily because KG and Bass give us so much interior spacing on offense.

Who knows, we may actually be better running more pick and roll with Gortat rather than Bass but it means we'll have to change our style and teams will be able to help on KG shooting the 15 footer much more (in my opinion).

I think Smith's game is more suited to the style we're trying to achieve than Gortat's. I still don't think Gortat would be a bad pick up but I just think he's option number 2 at the moment.
As I said, I could be completely wrong and would like to see what others think.

Offensively, I think that KG and Gortat would be an excellent pairing.  It's not true that Gortat has "a 100% interior game."  He can actually hit a jumper on pick and pops, but I agree that he is better as a "roller."  That's not a problem for me when you have Garnett as the "popper."  Let me remind you that this team played some of its best ball over the course of the last five years with the likes of Shaquille O'Neal and Kendrick Perkins at the center.  These are not guys who provided spacing on offense. 

Defensively, I simply don't have a problem with KG guarding 4s.  Even at the ripe old age of 36, he's still a very agile and very quick seven footer.  That doesn't worry me at all. 

I'm not a guy who thinks we desperately need to make a trade to be contender, but I am very high on Marcin Gortat, and would love to be able to land him for the present as well as for the foreseeable future.

I like Smith, too, but the size of his contract, his impending free agency, and his tendency to fall in love with bad shots all make me a little apprehensive about trading for him.

My only problem with Smith is the size of his contract. He's going to command max which means we give up more. Do we need to spend that much to get us over the edge championship wise?
Is Gortat at 7 million more appealling to Danny than Josh Smith at 15 million? Perhaps, but what's 7 million when it gets you a power forward that can guard Lebron and Kevin Durant, protect the basket and run with Rondo for 35 minutes a game in a 7 game series against the Heat?
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline Celtics4ever

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Agree, what we need in a C is good hands to catch dishes. rebounds and block shots.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2012, 06:11:50 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.

Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and  honor him.

Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?

Feeling snarky?

Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open.  I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though.  No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor.  He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game. 

I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs."  I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.

This is just my two cents, though.  No need to get testy.

It's perfectly reasonable for me to get snarky if you're going to criticize someones post without reading the whole thing.

Don't highlight problems with theories if you're not going to read the whole theory lol.

My point is that Josh Smith next to KG means KG can guard Perkins and not Ibaka but with Gortat he'll have to guard Ibaka.

Smith is still a threat on the perimeter because he has an inside out game that requires attention when he's on the perimeter and with Celtics screening so much defenders can't hang off him.

Gortat has a 100% interior game which is opposite to Bass who has much of his game on the 10-15 foot jumpshot whereas Gortat relies on the pick and roll, particularly the roll- more than any of our current bigs, so we'd have to change our offense to cater to that. This change may affect Rondos ability to pass as easily because KG and Bass give us so much interior spacing on offense.

Who knows, we may actually be better running more pick and roll with Gortat rather than Bass but it means we'll have to change our style and teams will be able to help on KG shooting the 15 footer much more (in my opinion).

I think Smith's game is more suited to the style we're trying to achieve than Gortat's. I still don't think Gortat would be a bad pick up but I just think he's option number 2 at the moment.
As I said, I could be completely wrong and would like to see what others think.

Offensively, I think that KG and Gortat would be an excellent pairing.  It's not true that Gortat has "a 100% interior game."  He can actually hit a jumper on pick and pops, but I agree that he is better as a "roller."  That's not a problem for me when you have Garnett as the "popper."  Let me remind you that this team played some of its best ball over the course of the last five years with the likes of Shaquille O'Neal and Kendrick Perkins at the center.  These are not guys who provided spacing on offense. 

Defensively, I simply don't have a problem with KG guarding 4s.  Even at the ripe old age of 36, he's still a very agile and very quick seven footer.  That doesn't worry me at all. 

I'm not a guy who thinks we desperately need to make a trade to be contender, but I am very high on Marcin Gortat, and would love to be able to land him for the present as well as for the foreseeable future.

I like Smith, too, but the size of his contract, his impending free agency, and his tendency to fall in love with bad shots all make me a little apprehensive about trading for him.

My only problem with Smith is the size of his contract. He's going to command max which means we give up more. Do we need to spend that much to get us over the edge championship wise?
Is Gortat at 7 million more appealling to Danny than Josh Smith at 15 million? Perhaps, but what's 7 million when it gets you a power forward that can guard Lebron and Kevin Durant, protect the basket and run with Rondo for 35 minutes a game in a 7 game series against the Heat?

I think you are under rating Marcin Gortat's defensive abilities.  When he was a role player in Orlando, barely getting minutes behind Dwight Howard, defense was his calling card for the few minutes a game that he got on the court.  When he got to Phoenix and got regular playing time, he surprised me with the fact that he had some offensive game as well.

Put him on the Celtics, where he can put both his defensive abilities and his pick and roll offensive game to use, and I think you have the potential for an all-star caliber center. 

I could be crazy, but that possibility has got me excited. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 07:05:51 AM »

Offline greg_kite

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If there is a choice between Smith and Gortat I think Gortat would be a better fit.  Miami's only weakness at this point is size.  They have nobody who can match up with Gortat.  With Smith they would be more talented but would face similar issues they are having now with rebounding and lack of a big interior presence.

They both worry me about what it would take to get them here.  Gortat doesn't make much relatively ($7 mil a year) so we would most likely take on another bad contract or trade Bradley and Bass.  And I'm not even sure Phoenix would do that.

And trading for Smith would be even worse, giving up $13 million in salaries to get him would mean losing two of these three (Bass, Lee, Terry) or Green and some young prospects.  I don't see Smith as much of an upgrade over Bass, especially for $6 million more per year.

This is mostly a big waste of time since the C's have little chance to get either guy.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 08:51:26 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration

So you think that Danny and Doc would rather steer towards the pick n roll starting five with Rondo dishing?
Remember there's much less room for Rondo to operate in the paint with Gortat in there than Bass moving out to 15 feet and taking his defender with him. I'm not saying this won't work. It worked very well with Shaq getting easy lay off's from Rondo.
But has Rondo become a better player with more space in the paint to work with?

Remember it's also not just about offense, it's about Kevin Garnett on the defensive end. How does KG go against Ibaka in a 7 game finals series?
Would we rather have Josh Smith on Ibaka and KG on Perk?
Or Smith on Amare and KG on Chandler?

I think Smith is a better all round defender than Gortat.
Who would be better against the Heat? Gortat or Smith? You could make arguments for both.
I just want people to weight the Smith vs Gortat debate up on both ends of the floor because most of the stuff I've seen really only implies offense.

Rondo makes both of them look good too- better than they currently look for sure.

Going back to offense, I think part of Rondo's ability to flourish into the assist king of the NBA is the space that our KG/Bass offense gives him.

To be completely honest, I wouldn't choose one over the other, I would be happy with either because I think our team is easily adaptable to either player. Yes rondo operates better with more space but gortat and him can run a great pick and roll game which still allows rondo to have the space he needs. Plus we lack a low post presence so I think we need gortat in the middle, when rondo penetrated gortat is going to get wide open dunks and buckets.

On the other end of the spectrum smith is a great slasher. Keeping him outside however would worry me a bit because he would be apt to shooting more jumpers.

On defense smith is a better defender but gortat is a true center that defends the position very well. Having a true center that can produce at such a high rate would do wonders for us.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 10:01:57 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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What's clear is that Smith is a better talent overall than Gortat especially on offense, but we saw in the playoffs that when Smith puts his mind to it, he can guard almost anyone. If Ainge HAS TO give up great prospects like Bradley or Sullinger, I definitely vote for Smith. BUT you might have to give up Green too to make the salaries work.

All that said, Gortat is more what this team needs.  He would be a defensive force down low and would play the Perk role.  I really don't think the logic holds together that he would not spread the floor and would prevent Rondo from penetrating,if you think about the Perk days.  That lineup won a championship (Terry or Bradley replacing Allen).

Bottom line is that I can't make up my mind on Smith vs. Gortat.  It all depends on which way Danny and Doc want to go, more interior presence or more talent.

Re: Danny is going after Josh Smith before he goes after Gortat. Here's why....
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 10:14:27 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration

This.

And you'll have to pay him a near max or the max to stay. I'm not sure if Dannybis going to do that now that we are overpaying Jeff Green.
2019 CStrong Historical Draft 2000s OKC Thunder.
PG: Jrue Holiday / Isaiah Thomas / Larry Hughes
SG: Paul George / Aaron McKie / Bradley Beal
SF: Paul Pierce / Tayshaun Prince / Brian Scalabrine
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge / Shareef Abdur-Raheem / Ben Simmons
C: Jermaine O'neal / Ben Wallace