Author Topic: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right  (Read 3240 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2012, 07:10:28 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7494
  • Tommy Points: 440
Quote
As I see it, the main reason that we don't get enough defensive rebounds is because our defense breaks down too often. You can't box out, if you miss your defensive rotations, and without boxing out, the defense loses it's advantage in rebounding. I'm not sure, that we need another big man for this, but it would obviously help.

Hard to get rebounds when they are scoring on us at will.  I think a lot of it is mental.  We have to commit to it.     

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2012, 08:32:27 AM »

Offline European NBA fan

  • Rajon Rondo
  • Posts: 940
  • Tommy Points: 136
Quote
As I see it, the main reason that we don't get enough defensive rebounds is because our defense breaks down too often. You can't box out, if you miss your defensive rotations, and without boxing out, the defense loses it's advantage in rebounding. I'm not sure, that we need another big man for this, but it would obviously help.

Hard to get rebounds when they are scoring on us at will.  I think a lot of it is mental.  We have to commit to it.   

I don't understand your comment.

My point is, that when the defense gets outplayed, not only do the other teams get easy points, they get offensive rebounds too, because the defense is out of position.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2012, 09:08:39 AM »

Offline OhioGreen

  • Jared Sullinger
  • Posts: 387
  • Tommy Points: 27
Bill Russell, Wes Unseld, Dennis Rodman, Larry Bird, Kevin Love, Kenneth Faried. All between 6'7" and 6'10".  Same as all of our "BIGS".  The thing is, rebounding is and art! It's a high BBIQ skill.  The aforementioned players were/are great rebounders because of their knowhow.  They didn't/don't rely on pure athleticism to outjump their opponents to get boards.
It's not offensive rebounding killing us, it's defensive. Without it, there are no fast breaks, and tons of offensive rebounds for the opponent!
And getting back on defense is great if you actually stop the opponent from scoring---but we aren't--so what's the great benefit?
We either need a bigger more athletic front line, or some smarter rebounders---all the other excuses are just BS!

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 09:22:21 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10067
  • Tommy Points: 605
Why does Doc constantly refuse to put KG and Wilcox in at the same time?

Why does Doc constantly refuse to put KG and Wilcox in at the same time?

Because when they both get tired we'd be left with a bigs lineup of sully and bass... Yikes.


And to address the OP. the main reason we need a center is to protect the rim and bulk up our intimidation/attitude factor on defense an actually give us some sort of inside presence of the offensive end. Because of that inside presence a few more offensive rebounds might come but for me that is an issue but not the most important.
DKC: GM Boston Celtics: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuCTllmkG26udHRaa0xrWm1qZTExaHltaEdtZzVRNFE&usp=sharing#gid=50
PICK 2: Trail Blazers
PG: Lillard/ReggieJackson
SG: D. Green/Miller/Wroten
SF: Leonard/Prince
PF: Aldridge/Diaw
C:  Noah/Birdman/Perkins

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 09:24:11 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3716
  • Tommy Points: 404
  • ?? ??!
Watched replay of the Spurs game....simple observation is that we were out-executed on both ends of the floor.   Put another way, they just ran their offense and especially defense better than us.   These things are fixable, and enough talent is there to be competitive.  Not saying things will get better, but that it's it he realm of possibility.

good point by kuberski, but then the spurs out-execute almost everyone. their execution allowed them to take advantage of the defensive breakdowns/bad switches by the celtics.

but back to the thread. i agree with tgreanier's basic argument and am glad he started this thread. offensive rebounds are good, but as was pointed out above harder for a team to "control" and not as reliable as playing great team defense.

defense is something coaches can teach and players can (or at least should) do time after time after time, possession after possession. offensive rebounding is not. it is more hit or miss since the ball can bounce a number of ways. and if the defensive team is boxing out correctly it reduces offensive rebound chances as well.

as for other team's offensive rebounding against the celtics, as also pointed out above that is partly a function of poor celtic defense, lack of consistent boxing out, poor positioning, and lack of effort as much as anything.

i think sullinger will quickly become one of the best defensive rebounders the celtics have and that will help the situation. but the key to celtic victories ultimately lies in their defense. that has been the case for years.

this year, they have not been as good at defense as in the past. bad switches, no switches, break downs, etc. cost them points each game. even if the celtics defense breaks down only once a period, only once...that is 4 easy scores for the other team. and that is 8 points or more in a game. that is a lot.

maybe it is because the celtics have so many new players. maybe kg and pierce are older and slower. maybe the team just doesnt value defense enough right now. i dont know. but unless the celtics' defense picks up other teams will continue to score and get those offensive rebounds.

as far as i can see, doc and tgreanier seem to have it right. so tp for tgreanier and well deserved.

“Every empire, however, tells itself and the world that it is unlike all other empires, that its mission is not to plunder and control but to educate and liberate."
Edward Said

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2012, 10:35:30 AM »

Offline timpiker

  • Brandon Bass
  • Posts: 402
  • Tommy Points: 27
quit trying to sugar coat the obvious and rationalize it - the C's rebounding sucks and has sucked for years.

no its not good and yes it is one of the reasons why they are losing at a high rate

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2012, 10:53:03 AM »

Offline Kwhit10

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4183
  • Tommy Points: 908
Look, getting almost 0 offense rebounds is fine when you lead the league in defense.  But this year we are 25th in defensive efficiency.  The Celtics didn't look to get offensive rebounds so they could get back on defense, and up until this year that worked out because the defense was top notch.  This year no rebounding + poor defense = not a very good team.  Either we have to step up the rebounding, or start playing defense like they used to.  It also shouldn't take a long time to understand the defense that Doc is using for all the new players, Scal recently on the radio said it took him 2 days to learn the defense.  These guys are professional ball players, they should have picked it up by now.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012, 10:53:28 AM »

Offline RyNye

  • NGT
  • Jeff Green
  • Posts: 705
  • Tommy Points: 96
Until this teams gets its defensive swagger back, it is a complete non sequitir to talk about offensive rebounds. Yes, they aren't that good at them (but we have always been above average or good at defensive rebounds, so it's inaccurate to say this team is bad at rebounding in general).

But we've gotten far without offensive rebounds in the past. At the moment, offense isn't even the huge worry for this team. It's defense. They haven't had more than 1 good defensive showing through a game this season, and it's concerning.

So until the defense comes back, there's no point complaining about secondary and tertiary issues.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2012, 11:15:07 AM »

Offline dysgenic

  • Gerald Wallace
  • Posts: 147
  • Tommy Points: 24
Doc is totally wrong- it is NONSENSE to send 5 guys back every single possession when you play 10 deep and most of the other teams are playing 7 or 8 guys.  We should be running these guys off the court, not worrying about getting an extra step or 2 in transition D that has sucked, anyway.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 11:27:06 AM »

Offline Surferdad

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2909
  • Tommy Points: 145
  • "He fiddles...and diddles..."
I generally agree that it's defense and defensive rebounding is where the problem lies. 

I can accept a well-executed offensive play that results in a missed shot and no offensive rebound.  As Doc has said, it's a make-or-break league, always has been, always will be.

However, what makes me tear my hair out is when they play defense for 24 seconds and then give up a offensive rebound put-back by the other team.  Playing good defense takes more energy than playing on offense. To waste all that effort by allowing the other team good position for their own offensive rebound is just such a shame.

Getting a legit 7-foot center will help but for a different reason than simply better rebounding and paint protection by that guy. It will result in a domino effect on the rest of the key players:  KG can play more PF, JG can play more SF, heck even PP can play some SG.  This would result in the team having a size advantage at more positions which will result in better defense and rebounding overall.

BTW, I didn't come up with this theory on my own;  it's been discussed in the threads on replacing Darko and trade ideas.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2012, 01:00:18 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
Look at the nets game. We were horrible with our rebounding in the first half and in the second half all of a sudden we turn into a good rebounding team. Rebounding is mostly effort. You don't have to be 7 foot tall to get a [dang] rebound. Being out of position and lack of effort is why we are giving up rebounds. Break downs on defense.

As others have said defense is this teams calling card. Not getting offensive rebounds. We have never been a good offensive rebounding team nor did we need to be. We are missing that great defensive we are so use to seeing.

This is why i think trading our second best defensive player is not the way to go here. Our defense will dramatically improve once AB is on the floor with rondo and KG. AB is greatly missed right now rather some of you want to admit it or not. I'm not even ready to judge this team yet until ab is back in the starting lineup and terry is back on the bench.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2012, 01:28:45 PM »

Offline vinnie

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8351
  • Tommy Points: 390
So since the team intentionally ignores offensive rebounding to play better defense, what is the story so far this year? Teams are scoring at will.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2012, 05:52:10 PM »

Offline tgreanier

  • Rajon Rondo
  • Posts: 843
  • Tommy Points: 154
  • The Patron Saint of Defense
So since the team intentionally ignores offensive rebounding to play better defense, what is the story so far this year? Teams are scoring at will.

That is exactly the point. Doc has not changed his philosophy at all during his tenure, but the defense is not anywhere near as solid. So now it is obvious that the lack of offensive rebounding is "hurting us" because our defense is not making up for it. The way the defense is playing right now, even if you added 6-10 offensive rebounds a game, the Celtics would only make up maybe 4-6 points.

I dread tonight's game - it is not going to go well I fear.
Bleeding green for 36 37 years.
"Maybe we do suck. But at least we don't wear yellow."

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2012, 06:03:14 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
The problem is the defense, its clear as day. Our defensive rebounding is middle of the pack our offensive rebounding is awful BY DESIGN *Cannot be denied*. The problem is defense. We are scoring enough to win, we aren't defending well enough to win. I think this team improves alot once AB comes back and terry moves to the bench.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2012, 07:10:33 PM »

Offline BenHenry

  • Kelly Olynyk
  • Posts: 46
  • Tommy Points: 3
I generally agree that it's defense and defensive rebounding is where the problem lies. 

I can accept a well-executed offensive play that results in a missed shot and no offensive rebound.  As Doc has said, it's a make-or-break league, always has been, always will be.

However, what makes me tear my hair out is when they play defense for 24 seconds and then give up a offensive rebound put-back by the other team.  Playing good defense takes more energy than playing on offense. To waste all that effort by allowing the other team good position for their own offensive rebound is just such a shame.

Getting a legit 7-foot center will help but for a different reason than simply better rebounding and paint protection by that guy. It will result in a domino effect on the rest of the key players:  KG can play more PF, JG can play more SF, heck even PP can play some SG.  This would result in the team having a size advantage at more positions which will result in better defense and rebounding overall.

BTW, I didn't come up with this theory on my own;  it's been discussed in the threads on replacing Darko and trade ideas.

Totally agree with you. Did anyone ever consider that getting our defensive rebounds is a part of good defense? And when an opposing team gets their off. board, it takes away our def. rebound which is because bad defense.

It's exactly what Surferdad pointed to, we gotta secure our boards or the defense will be pointless if they keep getting offensive boards. I feel like defense and rebounds go hand in hand. Both require extra work and grittiness. And it rewards those that want to win it more.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog