Author Topic: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.  (Read 6085 times)

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Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2012, 12:10:04 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Quote from: soap07
I can't really take this that seriously. Chris Bosh scored 19 points and grabbed 8 boards. He shot 8-10 from the field. Garnett had 14 and 7 on 6-12 of shooting.

You should, because that's what happened. 

You can sit here and quote all the box score all you like, but if you actually WATCHED the game Boston were mostly in control.  We kept building leads, and every time it looked like we were going to break away and blow them out, Lebron would take control of the game and bring them back within striking distance.  Every time Miami seemed to lose hope and lose their spirits, Lebron would come up with 3 or 4 consecutive big plays and give his team confidence.  He was dominating the game with his "refusal to lose" attitude. 

You just quoted Bosh's on paper numbers - they weren't THAT far from KG's numbers, yet KG has far more impact on defense (which you the box score doesn't have a number for).     

Quote
It helps that KG, you know, played the whole series.

Not really...

If you look at the way KG played in the time he was on the court vs the way Bosh played in the time he was on the court, KG was more dominant. 

KG was consistently hurting Miami with high percentage shots inside the paint - they had no answer to that for most of the series.  He was pretty much scoring at will down there.  When he wasn't scoring in the post he was hitting midrange jumpers, which he also traditionally hits at a very high percentage.  KG got his numbers from smart, high percentabe basketball - you can depend on that game in, game out. 

Bosh was standing out on the perimeter taking low percentage jump shots from a range that he traditionally doesn't hit at a high percentage from.  He just happened to get hot that day and hit three shots from there.  Bosh shoots about 30% from three, so statistically he would have hit 1/3 at best that game. 

You cannot depend on luck as a tactic or a strategy because (by definition) you don't always have it.  If he had a regular Chris Bosh game he would have shot 6-8 and he would have had 13 points instead of 19.  He didn't get his numbers from skill or ability, he was just pure lucky that he happened to get a hot hand on the right day, at the right time. 

If anything Bosh being out part of the series may have given him an advantage because he was the best rested guy on the court, while everyone else was tired.
 

Quote
You can't just disregard production when you don't like it. Wade and LeBron have historically not been good shooters. Should we discount any 3's they hit too?

That's hardly an equivalent comparison...

Wade has made about 0.5 3PT and attempted about 1.8 3PT per game over his 9 year career.  He's not a great three point shooter by any means (29% career) but if he's taking nearly two a game and hitting one in three then he's obivously a willing  shooter from that range whos capable of hitting it on a consistent (if not efficient) basis.   It's beyond the point of "fluke". 

Lebron has averaged 1.3 3PM per game over his career, so that's about three 3PM made every two games.  He's hitting those at 33% which is oviously not Ray Allen efficiency, but he is clearly a threat from there regardless.   

Bosh has averaged 0.1 3PM per game and about 0.3 attempts.  That means he only takes a three once every three games (give or take) and in every 10 games he might hit one. That's not a three-point threat.  It's debatable whether half of those shots are skill or just plain fluke - the sample size is too small for it to be convincing. 

In that game against us he hit three shots from outside - it would normally take him half a season to hit that many threes.  That is NOT standard shooting from him - it was clearly a fluke game and he just happened to be feeling it that night.   

Quote
Haslem was terrible last season in the limited amount that he did play. An under 11 PER in the playoffs and a 9 PER during the regular season. Keyon Dooling/Marquis Daniels were not asked to play the same role that Haslem was supposed to fill for the Heat.

He averaged 6 points and 7.3 reboounds in 25 minutes. That's 9 points and 10 rebounds per 36 minutes - 2.6 of those rebounds (per 36 minutes) were on the offensive end.  That's better rebounding then anyone on our team (bar maybe KG) gave us that season and better scoring per minute then any of our reserves last year bar maybe Pietrus.   

You're the gap between Bradley and Rondo is bigger then the gap between Bosh and his next guy (Haslem) but in in the playoffs we didn't have Bradley, so our backup to Ray Allen was either Pietrus or Marquis/Dooling.  Before Bradley went out we were without Ray Allen for a long time, so often Bradley was being backed up by Pietrus or Marquis/Dooling.

On a per minute basis was Pietrus' output REALLY that much higher than Haslem's on offense? Did he shoot on at a much higher efficiency?  He was pretty much our sixth man for the majority of the season.

Quote
Part of the problem with Bosh being out is that KG was free to roam and play much more help defense. When Bosh returned, he had to be guarded at all times in a way that Anthony and Haslem didn't have to be. This made the difference in the series. This freed things up offensive for LeBron and Wade. Bosh is also a better defender than Haslem and Anthony. I mean, really, he's pretty much better at everything but that's besides the point.

Miami have Mario Chalmers, Dwyane Wade, Lebron James and Shane Battier on the court the majority of the time.  Every one of those guys is a capable defender and every one of those guys can hit outside shots.  What you say above is untrue because we were constantly getting killed by Miami on three point shots from Battier / Chalmers / Jones LONG before Bosh came back - it changed very little when he returned.

By comparison Our perimeter defense on D Wade was composed of Ray Allen (injured, and a step slow at the best of times), Marquis Daniels, Keyon Dooling and E'Twaun Moore.   Out of those guys Marquis is the best defender - how much of a defensive upgrade would you say Bradley is over either one of those guys?  How much of an offensive upgrade is Bradley over Quis, Dooling or Moore? 

Pietrus was excellent for us, but because of his size/strength/athleticism he was often tasked with defending Lebron while Pierce sat. 

Bradley this season is EVEN MORE important to Boston then he was last season because we are so much more desperate for Perimeter D.  Last year we had Pietrus and Marquis, who were both very solid perimeter defenders.  Even Dooling was very good at times (and at least solid at others).  This year our best perimeter defenders are Lee (who has been dissaponiting) and Barbosa (who has never been known as a defensive minded player).

The simply addition of Avery Bradley to this team has on it's own has the potential to jump us from a top 22 defense to a top 10 defense - that is no exhageration. The guy is that good.  I think our offense would also improve with him out there.

Anyway, I don't even know how this discussion got this far - what does Bradley VS Bosh have to do with the original topic here?   Are we talking about trading  Bradley being a bad idea, or are we trying to argue about who was more valueable in the ECF out of Bradley or Bosh?  The latter would be a silly argument because we never saw Bradley in the ECF.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:18:53 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2012, 04:10:21 AM »

Offline chambers

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This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 04:18:44 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2012, 12:48:43 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2012, 12:54:55 PM »

Offline cman88

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This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

well, putting bradley in the starting lineup made our defense scary last year and helped turn the season around...I think that is what people are going on.

why are guards getting to the paint so much? because Rondo/Lee cant stay in front of anyone so far so our Big's have to help out..leaving THEIR man open.

If you have a guard who can stop their man from penetrating it allows KG/Bass to stay in the paint

Scalabrine mentioned this on the radio, that even just adding bradley could improve their defense. because they are missing his ability to stay in front of people

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2012, 12:57:30 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2012, 01:18:17 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

well, putting bradley in the starting lineup made our defense scary last year and helped turn the season around...I think that is what people are going on.

why are guards getting to the paint so much? because Rondo/Lee cant stay in front of anyone so far so our Big's have to help out..leaving THEIR man open.

If you have a guard who can stop their man from penetrating it allows KG/Bass to stay in the paint

Scalabrine mentioned this on the radio, that even just adding bradley could improve their defense. because they are missing his ability to stay in front of people

What are you talking about? Bradley is a scrub who didn't help our team in any way last year. Stop overrating him  ;)

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2012, 01:34:45 PM »

Offline vinnie

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I don't think you have to worry.


Good teams are not going to give up a lot for a player who had one short stretch of good play and then got injured. 


Especially when that player is a small SG.



I am not trying to knock Bradley or what he could be.  But at this point, his trade value is not that high that he could be the center piece of a trade for a big man like Gortat. 


And yes, if it was available, I would have no issue giving up AB in a package for a player like Gortat.  Just look at KG's effect on this team when he is on the court or off the court.  The Celtics need that talented player with size more then another SG, no matter how good defensively they are.

This. The above post = common sense thinking

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2012, 04:29:30 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

well, putting bradley in the starting lineup made our defense scary last year and helped turn the season around...I think that is what people are going on.

why are guards getting to the paint so much? because Rondo/Lee cant stay in front of anyone so far so our Big's have to help out..leaving THEIR man open.

If you have a guard who can stop their man from penetrating it allows KG/Bass to stay in the paint

Scalabrine mentioned this on the radio, that even just adding bradley could improve their defense. because they are missing his ability to stay in front of people

The main place that we are getting killed is on pick and roll plays.  Bigs have to help on pick and rolls no matter who the guards are.  Granted, there are guards who are better at fighting through picks than others.  Bradley is, indeed, particularly good at it. 

But, for a defense to be elite, it needs bigs who show well and recover on pick and rolls, and bigs who "help the helper" as they call it. 

Guards and wings get in the lane in the NBA.  No team stops penetration and never lets the opposition get in the lane.  What the good defensive teams do is cover, switch and help well once players are in the lane. 

I have confidence that our defense, led by Garnett (and two underrated defenders in Pierce and Rondo) will get back to the levels we've seen them play over the past five years.

I think a Marcin Gortat could help that D more for the present and the future than Avery Bradley. 

Of course, if we could find a way to add the former and keep the latter, that would be really sick.
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Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #83 on: November 23, 2012, 04:37:46 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

well, putting bradley in the starting lineup made our defense scary last year and helped turn the season around...I think that is what people are going on.

why are guards getting to the paint so much? because Rondo/Lee cant stay in front of anyone so far so our Big's have to help out..leaving THEIR man open.

If you have a guard who can stop their man from penetrating it allows KG/Bass to stay in the paint

Scalabrine mentioned this on the radio, that even just adding bradley could improve their defense. because they are missing his ability to stay in front of people

The main place that we are getting killed is on pick and roll plays.  Bigs have to help on pick and rolls no matter who the guards are.  Granted, there are guards who are better at fighting through picks than others.  Bradley is, indeed, particularly good at it. 

But, for a defense to be elite, it needs bigs who show well and recover on pick and rolls, and bigs who "help the helper" as they call it. 

Guards and wings get in the lane in the NBA.  No team stops penetration and never lets the opposition get in the lane.  What the good defensive teams do is cover, switch and help well once players are in the lane. 

I have confidence that our defense, led by Garnett (and two underrated defenders in Pierce and Rondo) will get back to the levels we've seen them play over the past five years.

I think a Marcin Gortat could help that D more for the present and the future than Avery Bradley. 

Of course, if we could find a way to add the former and keep the latter, that would be really sick.

Our defense was elite last year once garnett moved to center and ab entered the starting lineup. We didn't have any allstar bigs then. I disagree with almost everything you said