Author Topic: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.  (Read 6223 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2012, 05:36:28 PM »

Offline JSD

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9702
  • Tommy Points: 1112
No trade is beyond stupid if you get the right amount of value in return. Personally, I would rather Bradley be a wing that stays, but in the right deal he is expendable because of all of our depth at that particular position.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2012, 05:39:29 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14916
  • Tommy Points: 947
Were we to trade him I think we'd have to get real value back from him. 

He is one injury away however from being labeled injury prone.  So far he hasn't been able to complete a full season.

The more likely scenario is that he comes back and makes another guy like Terry or Lee expendable.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2012, 05:43:32 PM »

Offline JSD

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9702
  • Tommy Points: 1112
The more likely scenario is that he comes back and makes another guy like Terry or Lee expendable.

yeah, that's more or less what I'd like to see happen.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2012, 05:52:02 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
Trading terry after he got that tattoo would be so messed up lol. Plus terry is playing a ton better than lee. If terry was on the bench he'd be the best player off it. No way we trade terry. Lee on the other hand...............

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2012, 06:58:13 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Quote
Whether Bradley playing had more of an impact on the Celts in the playoffs last year than the impact of whether Bosh playing or not is undeniable.

It's actually quite deniable. One is simply the much better player. On/off stats are incredibly misleading - especially when cherry picking from a small sample size.

  We're talking about the impact of the players in the playoffs so the sample size will be fairly small. But I'm using all of Bradley's minutes, not just some of his best games. That's basically the opposite of cherry picking.

Quote
  You don't get it because this isn't fantasy basketball and you just can't assume that the better player will have the bigger impact on the game regardless of the circumstances.

You're right, I don't assume that. I do assume when a better player by far has back ups who wouldn't even crack the Celtics rotation is out for a majority of a series - and that better player is a franchise cornerstone - while the player he's being compared to is a role player with a deeper team around him - that Player A has the much bigger impact.

  Interesting. You tell me you don't assume that, followed by an explanation of why you *are* assuming that.

Quote
  An example of this is Scal in the 09 playoffs. He played his usual self but we would have gotten beat in both series fairly handily without him, because the minutes he played would have gone to Mikki Moore, who was nothing short of disaster. I'd say that, by simply keeping Moore on the bench, Scal had more of an impact on those playoffs than Bosh had for the Heat last year.


You do understand who was getting Bosh's minutes while he was out? On an already thin team? Joel Anthony. Udonis Haslem. Dexter Pittman. You understand that right? The gap between Bosh and Joel Anthony/whoever else they were throwing out there is so much larger than the gap between Bradley and Rondo that I actually can't believe I have to explain this.

  You don't have to explain this. Almost everyone knows that Bosh is better than Bradley. Almost everyone knows that the gap between Bosh and Anthony is greater than the gap between Bradley and Ray. That's not in dispute. But, nonetheless, Bradley being in the lineup made more of a difference for us than Bosh being in the lineup for the Heat. Your argument seems to be that if you can't understand why something would happen then you refuse to believe that it did. I obviously disagree with that.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2012, 07:19:12 PM »

Offline lightspeed5

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4111
  • Tommy Points: 283
avery bradley is the future of this team

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2012, 08:54:47 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5933
  • Tommy Points: 868
So you are under the impression - because of on/off numbers of both players in one playoff run against different teams in entirely different situations - is indicative that Avery Bradley had a bigger impact on the court than Chris Bosh - in spite of the fact that one player has had two seasons in the NBA and less than one quarter of a competent season....and the other player is a top 20 player in the NBA and has been for years.

And that it is complete coincidence that Miami outplayed us thoroughly in the games that Bosh was back fully.

Miami outplayed us in game 7 because Lebron took the team on his back and absolutely destroyed us.  Girl-scout Bosh had nothing to do with that win AT ALL.

KG killed Miami FAR more then Bosh killed us through that series.

In the previous game Bosh gave us trouble only because he hit about 3 total BS three's - he hit those shots because we didn't defend them AT ALL because Bosh is a career 28% three point shooter (and is shooting 18% from three this season). 

Those shots were:
* One part utter fluke
* One part helped by the fact that we didn't defend them

Take away those three's and then re-evaluate what Bosh did against us - practically nothing.

Bradley dominated defensively in every single game he played.

Quote
One guy is a legitimate cornerstone of a championship team whose backups were Joel Anthony, Udonis Haslem and Eddy Curry.

The other guy was, at his best, a solid role player and was actually a pretty poor player the majority of his playing time with the Celtics. If Bradley didn't see the court, that just meant more Rondo, Ray, etc. If Bosh didn't see the court, that meant more Anthony/Haslem.

Actually having Bradley not on the court meant more of Marquis Daniels and Keeyon Dooling, along with a few extra minutes for a injured Ray Allen who (with his bone spurs) was not playing much better than Daniels/Dooling.

Udonis Haslem is far more productive than Dooling or Daniels, and arguably more useful then Ray Allen the way he was playing in that series.

Quote
We're going to sit here and seriously pretend that Bradley would've made the difference last year. I just don't get it sometimes.

He would have made a very big difference.

Basketball is about matchups.  We slowed Wade down in a lot of those games, but do you remeber how we did it?  By throwing double teams at him which made him unconfortable - he was struggling with that.  Problem is it was leaving other guys open.

With Bradley we would have been able to slow Wade equally effectively with single coverage, and that would have allowed our perimeter defenders to stay on the shooters. 

You make the mistake of comparing players based on what they put on the box score.  Our inability to score lasst season (due to injuries, age, lack of firepower) meant that our defense was the only thing that kept us in games and gave us a chance to win.  Bradley was arguably our most critical defensive player along with KG. 

Having Bradley defending the perimeter and KG defending inside made our defense almost inpenetrable.  Having KG only protercts inside, but our l;ack of perimeter D means players are driving against us at will.  You cant expect KG to protect against all of that guard penetration AND defend his man, but right now thats what he's had to do - its asking too much of one man. It's not the box score that counts, it's the skills / talents each player brings in relation to what the team needs. 
Bradley's elite defense talent fills a desperate void on this team. 

Anyone here got access to all the fancy stats?  I'd love to see Boston's +/- stat (and their defensive stats) from last season when KG and Avery were on the court together.  That is my homework for anyone here who is interested in looking it up.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2012, 09:07:56 PM »

Offline soap07

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1557
  • Tommy Points: 145
Quote
  You don't have to explain this. Almost everyone knows that Bosh is better than Bradley. Almost everyone knows that the gap between Bosh and Anthony is greater than the gap between Bradley and Ray. That's not in dispute. But, nonetheless, Bradley being in the lineup made more of a difference for us than Bosh being in the lineup for the Heat. Your argument seems to be that if you can't understand why something would happen then you refuse to believe that it did. I obviously disagree with that.

Parsing through this paragraph:

Statement A: Chris Bosh is a better player than Avery Bradley.
Statement B: The gap between Chris Bosh and Joel Anthony is greater than the gap between Avery Bradley and Ray Allen.
Statement C: In spite of those two facts, Bradley being in the line up means more to the Celtics than Bosh to the Heat.

Okay.


Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2012, 09:21:06 PM »

Offline soap07

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1557
  • Tommy Points: 145
Quote
Miami outplayed us in game 7 because Lebron took the team on his back and absolutely destroyed us.  Girl-scout Bosh had nothing to do with that win AT ALL.

I can't really take this that seriously. Chris Bosh scored 19 points and grabbed 8 boards. He shot 8-10 from the field. Garnett had 14 and 7 on 6-12 of shooting.

Quote
KG killed Miami FAR more then Bosh killed us through that series.

It helps that KG, you know, played the whole series.

Quote
In the previous game Bosh gave us trouble only because he hit about 3 total BS three's - he hit those shots because we didn't defend them AT ALL because Bosh is a career 28% three point shooter (and is shooting 18% from three this season). 

Those shots were:
* One part utter fluke
* One part helped by the fact that we didn't defend them

Take away those three's and then re-evaluate what Bosh did against us - practically nothing.

You can't just disregard production when you don't like it. Wade and LeBron have historically not been good shooters. Should we discount any 3's they hit too?

Quote
Udonis Haslem is far more productive than Dooling or Daniels, and arguably more useful then Ray Allen the way he was playing in that series.

Haslem was terrible last season in the limited amount that he did play. An under 11 PER in the playoffs and a 9 PER during the regular season. Keyon Dooling/Marquis Daniels were not asked to play the same role that Haslem was supposed to fill for the Heat.

Quote
Having Bradley defending the perimeter and KG defending inside made our defense almost inpenetrable.  Having KG only protercts inside, but our l;ack of perimeter D means players are driving against us at will.  You cant expect KG to protect against all of that guard penetration AND defend his man, but right now thats what he's had to do - its asking too much of one man. It's not the box score that counts, it's the skills / talents each player brings in relation to what the team needs. 
Bradley's elite defense talent fills a desperate void on this team.


Part of the problem with Bosh being out is that KG was free to roam and play much more help defense. When Bosh returned, he had to be guarded at all times in a way that Anthony and Haslem didn't have to be. This made the difference in the series. This freed things up offensive for LeBron and Wade. Bosh is also a better defender than Haslem and Anthony. I mean, really, he's pretty much better at everything but that's besides the point.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2012, 09:29:36 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5933
  • Tommy Points: 868
The only reason you trade Bradley is if we can bring in a key big man (Josh Smith or Al Jefferson or something) that we know can contribute and fill our biggest holes.

The problem is that our biggest hole right now is not rebounding, it's not inside scoring, it's defense. Bradley fills that hole, so why trade him for a player that is older, that will cost us more money, and will fill a different (less important) hole?

Yes, our rebounding sucks this year - it sucked last year too, and we almost made the finals. 

Last year we had a dominant defense, and that gave us a chance.  The main things last year that stopped us from getting further were (in order):

(1) Lack of scoring - we were in the bottom 2 among all 16 playoff teams in scoring. We stopped opponents from scoring, but it wasn't enough because we couldn't score ourselves.

(2) Lack of depth - in the last game we competed throught the entire first half, but our lack of bench production meant our key guys (two of whom were injured) had to play massive minutes, and after a 3rd straight series going at least 6 games they were utterly exhausted.  We were the stronger team in the first half of game 7, then in the second half we were out of energy, and then Lebron just destroyed us.

(3) Lack of rebounding - this would have either given us extra posessions or limited the Heat's extra positions, and either case would have been valuable without a doubt.  At the end of the day though the ability to score is more important because a basket is a guaranteed score, while an offensive rebound is only an opportunity for a score.

Ultimately this year our scoring has improved dramatically.  Even in our worst offensive games we have been no worse then 'on par' with the offensive numbers we put up last season, and in our better games we have been vastly superior.  From memory we we are averaging around 98 PPG this year which is far superior to what we averaged last year.

The problem is that even though we are scoring more points, we are ALLOWING more points.  In fact we are allowing more points then we are scoring, and that's becuase our defense is horridly worse then it was last season.  If we got our defense back to where it was last season and continued to score at our current rate we would be right around the top of the league regardless of our rebounding situation.

This is why Bradley is more important for us then many people appreciate.  He may even be more important to us then Gortat because now that Dooling, Marquis and Pietrus are gone we have no perimeter defense at all when Bradley isn't in the game. 

Gortat helps our interior defense which is great, but KG already doing a great job there. Yes extra defense won't hurt, but it's nowehere near as critical because it's more "padding" a hole rather than filling a hole.  We can fight through 15 minutes of no interior defense and still beat playoff teams, but we can't fight through 48 minutes of zero perimeter defense and beat playoff teams.

Oh and before somebody mentions Courtney Lee, his defense has been somewhere in between 'inconsistent' and 'utterly insufficient'.  Right now I'd trade Lee for Pietrus in a heartbeat - and I'd tell the other team to keep the extra 4 million in cap space as a gift.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #70 on: November 22, 2012, 09:53:23 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5933
  • Tommy Points: 868
You do understand who was getting Bosh's minutes while he was out? On an already thin team? Joel Anthony. Udonis Haslem. Dexter Pittman. You understand that right? The gap between Bosh and Joel Anthony/whoever else they were throwing out there is so much larger than the gap between Bradley and Rondo that I actually can't believe I have to explain this.

Haslem is actually pretty good...he's a high energy guy who is a solid defender, a very good rebounder and capable of scoring when need be.  He's also a hard worker who puts in 110% every night.  I would not complain about having him on our team.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2012, 09:59:42 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Quote
  You don't have to explain this. Almost everyone knows that Bosh is better than Bradley. Almost everyone knows that the gap between Bosh and Anthony is greater than the gap between Bradley and Ray. That's not in dispute. But, nonetheless, Bradley being in the lineup made more of a difference for us than Bosh being in the lineup for the Heat. Your argument seems to be that if you can't understand why something would happen then you refuse to believe that it did. I obviously disagree with that.

Parsing through this paragraph:

Statement A: Chris Bosh is a better player than Avery Bradley.
Statement B: The gap between Chris Bosh and Joel Anthony is greater than the gap between Avery Bradley and Ray Allen.
Statement C: In spite of those two facts, Bradley being in the line up means more to the Celtics than Bosh to the Heat.

Okay.

  Yes, all three of those statements are true. You've been claiming that C has to be false *even though statistics show it to be true* because A and B are true. Your not seeing how it can be true has no bearing on the fact that, at least for the end of last season and the playoffs, it was true. Throwing out the stats because you disagree with them doesn't change them.


Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2012, 10:14:12 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
I was gonna quote it but you guys wrote long paragraphs. Very well said tho. People claim we are overrating bradley but the numbers prove otherwise. In fact, if anything, you guys are underrating him.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2012, 10:25:05 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5933
  • Tommy Points: 868
My point is, I don't think anyone around the league cares about Bradley enough to give up a star for him.  Could be wrong, but I doubt a team like Atlanta is salivating for a super hyped munchkin who averaged 7 points and .7 steals last year.... probably not enough to give up a bluechip talent like Josh Smith.

I actually agree with you on this one.

Bradley is a guy who has two main upsides:
1. Elite perimeter defense
2. Youth / potential

No team back in the day would have traded Chris Webber in his prime for Bruce Bowen in his prime - but it's undeniable that Bruce Bowen was a critical piece on some very succesful NBA teams. 

Having exceptional skill/talent in one area doesn't make you an "all star" like asset come trade time. 

Bradley has more to offer then Bowen because he's more athletic and a better offensive player then Bowen was, but teams won't trade an all-star straight up unless they are getting a player with All-Star potential in return. I think a lot of teams would question whether Bradley would ever be an All-Star calibre player, and even I question that.

Here is something to think about.  Right now, Tony Allen is a pretty valuable commodity on the market. He's not all-star valuable, but his elite defense and effort/energy personality combined with his solid (if not spectacular) offense gives him a very high value on the market none the less.

The way I see it Avery Bradley is about on par with Tony Allen right now defensively, and not far off offensively.  He's got the same high motor and 'high effort' attitude, he's more athletic and he's younger.  That tells me that right now Avery Bradley probably has trade value similar to Tony Allen, possibly even high simply because of his youth (and hence potential). 
Would a team trade an All-Star for Tony Allen?  Probably not.  Would a team give up a disgruntled borderline All-Star for Tony Allen, Courtney Lee and Brandon Bass (or Sullinger)?  I think 9 teams out of 10 would at least consider it.

Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2012, 11:25:00 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 41492
  • Tommy Points: 2305
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Trading anyone isn't necessarily stupid. It's only stupid if youre getting value back that isn't in the best interests of your team.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner