Author Topic: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?  (Read 1744 times)

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Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2012, 10:53:24 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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I don't really understand the point of holding onto Varejao.

He is an elite complimentary player but not a cornerstone of a franchise.in my opinion.

I just don't see the point of holding on to him ad he has gone through his ceiling pretty much. Why not look at some young guys with star potential +Draft picks?


Also any chance (although something I hate about the NBA) that he starts griping about his situation and possibly ask suggest that they move on?

Well, there are two ways they can go here.

If Kyrie is healthy, they might only be 1 more All-Star level player away from being a very dangerous team, but a big part of that would be having Varajao in the middle.  They have the cap space to make a deal for an impact player, along with a stockpile of future #1s (2 from Miami, 1 from LA, and one from Sacramento) if anyone hits the market.

But, if Kyrie is not going to be healthy, or they don't see a way to add another piece, then I agree that it does make sense to move Varajao.  But I don't think they will be in any rush, since he is under contract for another season.  They can hold out for the package they want.  And I just don't see the C's being a good match for that.

What's a very dangerous team? Low playoff seed that could upset a team?

I just don't see them even competing really with those top 4-5 teams for the foreseeable future. You got Miami, nets, knicks, hawks, boston,  with pacers + Sixers looking in from the outside.

I don't see them improving dramatically (or to be a threat in the east) adding one more star like Joe Johnson unless you are talking a super star.

Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2012, 11:25:36 AM »

Offline Chris

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I don't really understand the point of holding onto Varejao.

He is an elite complimentary player but not a cornerstone of a franchise.in my opinion.

I just don't see the point of holding on to him ad he has gone through his ceiling pretty much. Why not look at some young guys with star potential +Draft picks?


Also any chance (although something I hate about the NBA) that he starts griping about his situation and possibly ask suggest that they move on?

Well, there are two ways they can go here.

If Kyrie is healthy, they might only be 1 more All-Star level player away from being a very dangerous team, but a big part of that would be having Varajao in the middle.  They have the cap space to make a deal for an impact player, along with a stockpile of future #1s (2 from Miami, 1 from LA, and one from Sacramento) if anyone hits the market.

But, if Kyrie is not going to be healthy, or they don't see a way to add another piece, then I agree that it does make sense to move Varajao.  But I don't think they will be in any rush, since he is under contract for another season.  They can hold out for the package they want.  And I just don't see the C's being a good match for that.

What's a very dangerous team? Low playoff seed that could upset a team?

I just don't see them even competing really with those top 4-5 teams for the foreseeable future. You got Miami, nets, knicks, hawks, boston,  with pacers + Sixers looking in from the outside.

I don't see them improving dramatically (or to be a threat in the east) adding one more star like Joe Johnson unless you are talking a super star.

When you are talking about developing a potential superstar in Irving, a low playoff seed and an upset chance, can be much more valuable than a couple more draft picks or more young guys, for a team that already has a stock of them.

Here are the assets the Cavs have to build around:

Irving - young superstar
Waiters - looks like he could be a star as well, and is surprisingly fitting in well with Irving
Tristan Thompson - Talented, athletic PF, who is already a quality defender and rebounder, and is developing nicely offensively. 
Tyler Zeller - Looks like he will at least be a servicable backup center, if not more.

Even Alonzo Gee looks like he is turning into a very good player.

Then they have 4 first round draft picks coming there way, in addition to all of their own, and a couple extra second rounders as well.

So, they have a decent stockpile of assets, and young players.  They are really reaching the point in their lifecycle, where they need to stop collecting and turn some of those assets into a winning basketball team, before they create a lasting culture of losing, that spoils everything.

Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2012, 01:12:23 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Man, if Cleveland had only taken Valuncinias last year and/or admitted they made a mistake on Thompson and selected Thomas Robinson last year. They could move Varejao for Bradley and start to mold themselves into a real team.
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Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2012, 01:41:13 PM »

Offline jgod213

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Man, if Cleveland had only taken Valuncinias last year and/or admitted they made a mistake on Thompson and selected Thomas Robinson last year. They could move Varejao for Bradley and start to mold themselves into a real team.


I'm not as down on Waiters as most people seem to be.  He looks lost at times and is terribly inconsistent, but he has elite-level range on that shot of his and should be able to mold into a pretty electric scorer (maybe best suited for a 6th man role?)

Even being the optimist i am on Waiters, the idea of an Irving/Bradley backourt and a Robinson/Verejo frontcourt sounds like a GMs wet dream.  Great mix of youth, defense, energy, and skill.  Add a veteran presence at the 3 to help Irving/Varejao out with the leadership duties and you've got a playoff team ontop of a terrific youth movement.

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Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2012, 01:53:12 PM »

Offline Chris

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Man, if Cleveland had only taken Valuncinias last year and/or admitted they made a mistake on Thompson and selected Thomas Robinson last year. They could move Varejao for Bradley and start to mold themselves into a real team.


I'm not as down on Waiters as most people seem to be.  He looks lost at times and is terribly inconsistent, but he has elite-level range on that shot of his and should be able to mold into a pretty electric scorer (maybe best suited for a 6th man role?)

Even being the optimist i am on Waiters, the idea of an Irving/Bradley backourt and a Robinson/Verejo frontcourt sounds like a GMs wet dream.  Great mix of youth, defense, energy, and skill.  Add a veteran presence at the 3 to help Irving/Varejao out with the leadership duties and you've got a playoff team ontop of a terrific youth movement.

I thought Waiters was a terrible pick at draft time, but now that I actually see him play in the NBA, I think he was just made for the NBA game, and is going to be REALLY good.

I also am not sure they made a mistake with Thompson.  Yes, they should have taken Valunciunas, as should have everyone picking after Irving was off the board, but I actually think Thompson looks like he will be a very good player.  He is still raw offensively, but he is coming along a lot quicker than I thought in that area, and is a very good defensive player. 

Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2012, 02:40:20 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Mistake with Thompson?  Dude is among the league leaders in offensive rebounds and has shown a better more refined and more efficient all around game this year in just his second year.  Frankly I'd rather have Thompson than Thomas Robinson. 
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Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2012, 03:27:44 PM »

Offline Chris

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Mistake with Thompson?  Dude is among the league leaders in offensive rebounds and has shown a better more refined and more efficient all around game this year in just his second year.  Frankly I'd rather have Thompson than Thomas Robinson.

I actually would too.  I like Robinson, as a pick and roll big man, in the David West mould, but I think Thompson will be a more well rounded player. 

Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2012, 03:48:38 PM »

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Mistake with Thompson?  Dude is among the league leaders in offensive rebounds and has shown a better more refined and more efficient all around game this year in just his second year.  Frankly I'd rather have Thompson than Thomas Robinson.

I actually would too.  I like Robinson, as a pick and roll big man, in the David West mould, but I think Thompson will be a more well rounded player.
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Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2012, 04:15:29 PM »

Offline snively

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I don't really understand the point of holding onto Varejao.

He is an elite complimentary player but not a cornerstone of a franchise.in my opinion.

I just don't see the point of holding on to him ad he has gone through his ceiling pretty much. Why not look at some young guys with star potential +Draft picks?


Also any chance (although something I hate about the NBA) that he starts griping about his situation and possibly ask suggest that they move on?

Well, there are two ways they can go here.

If Kyrie is healthy, they might only be 1 more All-Star level player away from being a very dangerous team, but a big part of that would be having Varajao in the middle.  They have the cap space to make a deal for an impact player, along with a stockpile of future #1s (2 from Miami, 1 from LA, and one from Sacramento) if anyone hits the market.

But, if Kyrie is not going to be healthy, or they don't see a way to add another piece, then I agree that it does make sense to move Varajao.  But I don't think they will be in any rush, since he is under contract for another season.  They can hold out for the package they want.  And I just don't see the C's being a good match for that.

What's a very dangerous team? Low playoff seed that could upset a team?

I just don't see them even competing really with those top 4-5 teams for the foreseeable future. You got Miami, nets, knicks, hawks, boston,  with pacers + Sixers looking in from the outside.

I don't see them improving dramatically (or to be a threat in the east) adding one more star like Joe Johnson unless you are talking a super star.

When you are talking about developing a potential superstar in Irving, a low playoff seed and an upset chance, can be much more valuable than a couple more draft picks or more young guys, for a team that already has a stock of them.

Here are the assets the Cavs have to build around:

Irving - young superstar
Waiters - looks like he could be a star as well, and is surprisingly fitting in well with Irving
Tristan Thompson - Talented, athletic PF, who is already a quality defender and rebounder, and is developing nicely offensively. 
Tyler Zeller - Looks like he will at least be a servicable backup center, if not more.

Even Alonzo Gee looks like he is turning into a very good player.

Then they have 4 first round draft picks coming there way, in addition to all of their own, and a couple extra second rounders as well.

So, they have a decent stockpile of assets, and young players.  They are really reaching the point in their lifecycle, where they need to stop collecting and turn some of those assets into a winning basketball team, before they create a lasting culture of losing, that spoils everything.

That's a wildly generous assessment of Cleveland's talent base (Thompson isn't showing much of anything offensively - 45% shooting on low volume - and is still very raw as a defender; I don't see Waiters star potential unless you consider Ben Gordon a star - a 6th man scorer who is too small/limited to be a bonafide starter at the 2-guard; Ty Zeller hasn't even shown himself to be a servicable back-up yet; Gee is a fringe rotation player).

But I can still see your point and see why the Cavs might be hopeful that they can follow a similar route to the one the C's rode to glory in 2007.  Walton/Gibson/Casspi is a pretty sizable chunk of expiring contracts (that Gibson is half-guaranteed is an extra bonus) and they do have a ton of picks and prospects.

But outside of the untouchable Irving, they lack a Big Al heavy-hitter prospect.  Thompson & Waiters were big reaches in the draft and haven't blossomed into major assets yet.  And Zeller/Gee/late first rounders are firmly in the Gerald Green/Ryan Gomes/future picks category as modestly attractive fill-in.

The one heavy hitter in Cleveland's arsenal is their upcoming pick.  And I don't think they'd be best served by spending that on a veteran impact player just yet - they are quite a bit further away from contention than any of the players potentially available on the market could bring them.  That's the other problem.

Of the games top 10-20 players, are any on the market for a picks + prospects package?  LeBron, Durant, Howard, CP3, D-Will, Wade, Rose, Kobe, Rondo, Harden, Westbrook, KG, Bosh, Melo, Griffin, Love... The best guy on the trading block (in my view) is Pau - and he's not going to be had for picks and prospects.  Dirk is another, but I don't think Dallas will move him.  Too stubborn.

That leaves guys like Josh Smith and maybe Al Horford.

No I think Cleveland is better off trading Varejao, accumulating more assets and building a stronger, younger foundation around Irving.
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Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 04:30:05 PM »

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I don't really understand the point of holding onto Varejao.

He is an elite complimentary player but not a cornerstone of a franchise.in my opinion.

I just don't see the point of holding on to him ad he has gone through his ceiling pretty much. Why not look at some young guys with star potential +Draft picks?


Also any chance (although something I hate about the NBA) that he starts griping about his situation and possibly ask suggest that they move on?

Well, there are two ways they can go here.

If Kyrie is healthy, they might only be 1 more All-Star level player away from being a very dangerous team, but a big part of that would be having Varajao in the middle.  They have the cap space to make a deal for an impact player, along with a stockpile of future #1s (2 from Miami, 1 from LA, and one from Sacramento) if anyone hits the market.

But, if Kyrie is not going to be healthy, or they don't see a way to add another piece, then I agree that it does make sense to move Varajao.  But I don't think they will be in any rush, since he is under contract for another season.  They can hold out for the package they want.  And I just don't see the C's being a good match for that.

What's a very dangerous team? Low playoff seed that could upset a team?

I just don't see them even competing really with those top 4-5 teams for the foreseeable future. You got Miami, nets, knicks, hawks, boston,  with pacers + Sixers looking in from the outside.

I don't see them improving dramatically (or to be a threat in the east) adding one more star like Joe Johnson unless you are talking a super star.

When you are talking about developing a potential superstar in Irving, a low playoff seed and an upset chance, can be much more valuable than a couple more draft picks or more young guys, for a team that already has a stock of them.

Here are the assets the Cavs have to build around:

Irving - young superstar
Waiters - looks like he could be a star as well, and is surprisingly fitting in well with Irving
Tristan Thompson - Talented, athletic PF, who is already a quality defender and rebounder, and is developing nicely offensively. 
Tyler Zeller - Looks like he will at least be a servicable backup center, if not more.

Even Alonzo Gee looks like he is turning into a very good player.

Then they have 4 first round draft picks coming there way, in addition to all of their own, and a couple extra second rounders as well.

So, they have a decent stockpile of assets, and young players.  They are really reaching the point in their lifecycle, where they need to stop collecting and turn some of those assets into a winning basketball team, before they create a lasting culture of losing, that spoils everything.

That's a wildly generous assessment of Cleveland's talent base (Thompson isn't showing much of anything offensively - 45% shooting on low volume - and is still very raw as a defender; I don't see Waiters star potential unless you consider Ben Gordon a star - a 6th man scorer who is too small/limited to be a bonafide starter at the 2-guard; Ty Zeller hasn't even shown himself to be a servicable back-up yet; Gee is a fringe rotation player).

But I can still see your point and see why the Cavs might be hopeful that they can follow a similar route to the one the C's rode to glory in 2007.  Walton/Gibson/Casspi is a pretty sizable chunk of expiring contracts (that Gibson is half-guaranteed is an extra bonus) and they do have a ton of picks and prospects.

But outside of the untouchable Irving, they lack a Big Al heavy-hitter prospect.  Thompson & Waiters were big reaches in the draft and haven't blossomed into major assets yet.  And Zeller/Gee/late first rounders are firmly in the Gerald Green/Ryan Gomes/future picks category as modestly attractive fill-in.

The one heavy hitter in Cleveland's arsenal is their upcoming pick.  And I don't think they'd be best served by spending that on a veteran impact player just yet - they are quite a bit further away from contention than any of the players potentially available on the market could bring them.  That's the other problem.

Of the games top 10-20 players, are any on the market for a picks + prospects package?  LeBron, Durant, Howard, CP3, D-Will, Wade, Rose, Kobe, Rondo, Harden, Westbrook, KG, Bosh, Melo, Griffin, Love... The best guy on the trading block (in my view) is Pau - and he's not going to be had for picks and prospects.  Dirk is another, but I don't think Dallas will move him.  Too stubborn.

That leaves guys like Josh Smith and maybe Al Horford.

No I think Cleveland is better off trading Varejao, accumulating more assets and building a stronger, younger foundation around Irving.

I agree, I mean they are pretty much in this place now, AV does not do anything for them (I don't mean play but as far as where they go as a team). I think them keeping his is a waste... they could be getting a lot for him instead of just letting him go all out for a bad team... what do they gain by keeping him (he isn't getting any younger)? I also don't think they are one star away, I don't think even LeBroid could win anything with them (when it matters in the playoffs). I think they need another STAR and some very good role players with a lot of experience.
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Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2012, 04:52:34 PM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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Man, if Cleveland had only taken Valuncinias last year and/or admitted they made a mistake on Thompson and selected Thomas Robinson last year. They could move Varejao for Bradley and start to mold themselves into a real team.


I'm not as down on Waiters as most people seem to be.  He looks lost at times and is terribly inconsistent, but he has elite-level range on that shot of his and should be able to mold into a pretty electric scorer (maybe best suited for a 6th man role?)

Even being the optimist i am on Waiters, the idea of an Irving/Bradley backourt and a Robinson/Verejo frontcourt sounds like a GMs wet dream.  Great mix of youth, defense, energy, and skill.  Add a veteran presence at the 3 to help Irving/Varejao out with the leadership duties and you've got a playoff team ontop of a terrific youth movement.
why are yall salivating over the idea of OUR player making the Cavs better?

Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2012, 05:00:09 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Man, if Cleveland had only taken Valuncinias last year and/or admitted they made a mistake on Thompson and selected Thomas Robinson last year. They could move Varejao for Bradley and start to mold themselves into a real team.


I'm not as down on Waiters as most people seem to be.  He looks lost at times and is terribly inconsistent, but he has elite-level range on that shot of his and should be able to mold into a pretty electric scorer (maybe best suited for a 6th man role?)

Even being the optimist i am on Waiters, the idea of an Irving/Bradley backourt and a Robinson/Verejo frontcourt sounds like a GMs wet dream.  Great mix of youth, defense, energy, and skill.  Add a veteran presence at the 3 to help Irving/Varejao out with the leadership duties and you've got a playoff team ontop of a terrific youth movement.
why are yall salivating over the idea of OUR player making the Cavs better?

I bet its because they enjoy watching professional basketball in any form, as well as rooting for the Celtics as a 'home team'.


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Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2012, 05:15:28 PM »

Offline jowwwman

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I'm not sure I'm willing to trade the salary to match Varejao and Walton. We're talking 14.5M. I'd trade Bass and Lee for Varejao and Casspi/Miles and honestly I wouldn't mind taking on Walton as dead weight but I couldn't stomach shipping out Green or some combination of our rookies to make the salaries match for Walton.

I'm sure Cleveland wouldn't be down to trade Varejao and Walton for Green and picks anyways. That's the equivalent of trading Varejao for picks and dumping waltons expiring for a bad contract
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 05:44:28 PM by jowwwman »

Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2012, 05:29:51 PM »

Offline Chris

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I'm not sure I'm willing to trade the salary to match Varejao and Walton. We're talking 14.5M. I'd trade Bass and Lee for Varejao and Casspi/Miles and honestly I wouldn't mind taking on Walton as dead weight but I couldn't stomach shipping out Green or some combination of our rookies to make the salaries match for Walton.

I'm sure Cleveland wouldn't be down to trade Varejao and Walton for Green and picks anyways. That's the equivalent of trading Varejao for picks and dumping one bad contract for another.

Walton isn't a bad contract.  It is an expiring contract. 

I think the deal with Cleveland, would actually be using either their cap space, or Walton's expiring contract, with perhaps a draft pick, for Jeff Green, with a third team sending the C's someone else (Utah, Atlanta, etc.).

Re: What do the Cavs want for Varejao?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2012, 05:45:15 PM »

Offline jowwwman

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I'm not sure I'm willing to trade the salary to match Varejao and Walton. We're talking 14.5M. I'd trade Bass and Lee for Varejao and Casspi/Miles and honestly I wouldn't mind taking on Walton as dead weight but I couldn't stomach shipping out Green or some combination of our rookies to make the salaries match for Walton.

I'm sure Cleveland wouldn't be down to trade Varejao and Walton for Green and picks anyways. That's the equivalent of trading Varejao for picks and dumping one bad contract for another.

Walton isn't a bad contract.  It is an expiring contract. 

I think the deal with Cleveland, would actually be using either their cap space, or Walton's expiring contract, with perhaps a draft pick, for Jeff Green, with a third team sending the C's someone else (Utah, Atlanta, etc.).

Trade Green for walton's expiring and a pick.

 

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