Author Topic: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.  (Read 2629 times)

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Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2012, 10:45:58 AM »

Offline Chris

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Yeah I'd rather Terry be in that role than Barbossa.

I don't completely get Doc's insistence of not playing Terry on the ball.  But I will give him the benefit of the doubt at this point in the season.  I think part of it might be to try to prevent him from getting into the bad habit nearly every other shoot first PG they have brought in has gotten into early in their tenure, of overpassing, and losing their shot.

...at least thats what I hope it is.  And he plans on putting the ball in his hands more, as the season progresses.

But anyways, I expect when Bradley returns, that Terry will be taking most of Barbosa's minutes, and Barbosa will be kind of a secret weapon, in case no one can score, rather than a regular rotation player. 

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2012, 11:23:11 AM »

Offline papa shuttlesworth

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I realize that this thread is about the Celtics' offense, but I have been thinking for the past few games that the defense might also need some changing up.

(For the record, I also believe that the defense is going to get a lot stronger as the new guys learn the system and also when Bradley comes back.)

I think that Thibideau's strong side defense that the Celtics have been using for all these years might be becoming stale. At first (actually for 4 or 5 years), no one could score against it. But now, as more teams use it and teams have seen it so much, they can really plan on ways to beat it. Lawrence Frank probably knows its weaknesses better than most, but when the Pistons routinely counter it and get whatever shot they want, it might mean that changes need to be made. Maybe not huge changes, but some tweaks.

Or just bring back Bradley ASAP.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2012, 11:29:37 AM »

Offline Brendan

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Doc is Doc. Those who remember 2007 remember a coach that has a hard time settling on a rotation when the talent on the roster doesn't dictate it. In 2007 only when injuries destroyed the depth chart did the team ever get a stable rotation. I'm of the belief that guys need run to play well. Yes KG and PP need to be managed to stay fresh, but other guys need more minutes to play well.

In 2008 this was an obvious decision for him (starters were obvious, Posey as 6th man - obvious, once they had brown as first big - obvious.) The more difficult decisions (Powe or BBD, House or Cassel) he struggled with all year.

One idea that might help this team is to use Pierce off the bench (granted I have no idea if Pierce would be willing to do this). It would help get Green more minutes with Rondo (Green is not a primary creator) and give the first unit a better ability to run: Rondo, Lee, Green, Bass, KG could get up and down the floor. It would give the bench two creators in Terry and Pierce backing up the guard/wing spots - ensuring when Rondo is out the offense doesn't become stagnant. It would keep Pierce fresh by reducing his minutes.

Most importantly it might stabilize the minutes rotation as Pierce off the bench can play wing behind Lee & Green. Terry can play combo guard behind Lee / Rondo.

That's a solid 5 man rotation for those spots. Last step is that Doc needs to get his big man rotation in order. I'm against more than 5-10 minutes of small ball a game. I think Sullinger, Bass, and Wilcox are all serviceable at PF. Wilcox is not terrible at C, but not a great option either. The real problem with this team is a lack of depth behind KG at C. Hopefully Darko gets healthy and can play, but absent that the C's need to consider moving some of their superflous depth to get a C.

The rest of the depth behind the top 9 needs to be relegated to a real bench role.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2012, 12:02:35 PM »

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Doc is Doc. Those who remember 2007 remember a coach that has a hard time settling on a rotation when the talent on the roster doesn't dictate it. In 2007 only when injuries destroyed the depth chart did the team ever get a stable rotation. I'm of the belief that guys need run to play well. Yes KG and PP need to be managed to stay fresh, but other guys need more minutes to play well.

In 2008 this was an obvious decision for him (starters were obvious, Posey as 6th man - obvious, once they had brown as first big - obvious.) The more difficult decisions (Powe or BBD, House or Cassel) he struggled with all year.

One idea that might help this team is to use Pierce off the bench (granted I have no idea if Pierce would be willing to do this). It would help get Green more minutes with Rondo (Green is not a primary creator) and give the first unit a better ability to run: Rondo, Lee, Green, Bass, KG could get up and down the floor. It would give the bench two creators in Terry and Pierce backing up the guard/wing spots - ensuring when Rondo is out the offense doesn't become stagnant. It would keep Pierce fresh by reducing his minutes.

Most importantly it might stabilize the minutes rotation as Pierce off the bench can play wing behind Lee & Green. Terry can play combo guard behind Lee / Rondo.

That's a solid 5 man rotation for those spots. Last step is that Doc needs to get his big man rotation in order. I'm against more than 5-10 minutes of small ball a game. I think Sullinger, Bass, and Wilcox are all serviceable at PF. Wilcox is not terrible at C, but not a great option either. The real problem with this team is a lack of depth behind KG at C. Hopefully Darko gets healthy and can play, but absent that the C's need to consider moving some of their superflous depth to get a C.

The rest of the depth behind the top 9 needs to be relegated to a real bench role.

This is very true about Doc-TP4U.

And it's the problem with the early Doc/Danny years' rosters (mediocrity) and the current one (bunch of players with comparable ability overall, but different strengths/weaknesses).

Rhythm is important, as are clear roles.  We saw some role players struggle when their roles changed, were inconsistent (rebound one night, score the next), or were undefined (e.g. "basketball player").

I suppose some might say Doc gives everyone a chance to earn it when there isn't a clear superior player, but it just looks like a minutes mess to me.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2012, 10:30:48 AM »

Offline mgent

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There is no shot blocking presence. AT ALL.

He should start from that.

This is a problem but I dont think its THE problem tonight.

This team should be able to allow 90-95 points on "lazy" defensive nights and still score 100-110 points to get the W. They have enough offensive talent.

We scored 75 points tonight when we have guys like Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee and Leandro Barbosa.  That is a huge issue when these guys have all shown that they can fill it up consistently on a nightly basis for their respective teams in the past.
You seem to forget we lost our 2nd leading scorer for the past 5 years (and probably our most efficient).  That's a lot of points to just snap your fingers and replace, let alone add an additional 10-15 points onto that.

I've personally been talking about Doc tweaking the system for 3 years now.  We saw what it can do when Pop was able to suddenly turn the same roster into the best offense 2 years ago.

Our current system was perfect in 08.  It allowed Pierce to run around, almost playing point forward, and score 19 points while getting Ray and KG open enough to score ~17.  Rondo made it so everybody else scored enough and stayed involved.  Now, Rondo still does the same thing, but we've still been relying on the Big 3 to take care of the scoring load.  Instead we need a system that takes advantage of Rondo's improvements.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2012, 11:04:45 AM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Yeah I'd rather Terry be in that role than Barbossa.

I don't completely get Doc's insistence of not playing Terry on the ball.  But I will give him the benefit of the doubt at this point in the season.  I think part of it might be to try to prevent him from getting into the bad habit nearly every other shoot first PG they have brought in has gotten into early in their tenure, of overpassing, and losing their shot.

...at least thats what I hope it is.  And he plans on putting the ball in his hands more, as the season progresses.

But anyways, I expect when Bradley returns, that Terry will be taking most of Barbosa's minutes, and Barbosa will be kind of a secret weapon, in case no one can score, rather than a regular rotation player.

I feel like people give doc that a little too much.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2012, 02:06:07 PM »

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We need to remove the ball from Rondo, Pierce, and Barbosa's hands. Once that happens, I think we'll see our offense improve. Not that these 3 haven't been productive, but the ball is sticking too much when they grab the ball.

Same can be said for Bass, but for the most part, he's there to shoot the open jumper.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2012, 02:11:03 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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We need to remove the ball from Rondo, Pierce, and Barbosa's hands. Once that happens, I think we'll see our offense improve. Not that these 3 haven't been productive, but the ball is sticking too much when they grab the ball.
So you want Bass, KG, Terry, Lee, Sullinger, and Wilcox to be our playmakers?

Good luck with that.

We're 6th in TS%, 11th in TOV%, 4th in FT per FGA, and 30th in offensive rebounding. I struggle to see how removing the ball from our playmakers hands will help the one category that could really use a boost.

While we haven't been playing the toughest schedule defensively to start the season it hasn't been our offense that's the issue.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2012, 02:12:54 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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We need to remove the ball from Rondo, Pierce, and Barbosa's hands. Once that happens, I think we'll see our offense improve. Not that these 3 haven't been productive, but the ball is sticking too much when they grab the ball.

Same can be said for Bass, but for the most part, he's there to shoot the open jumper.

 ???

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2012, 02:18:26 PM »

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We need to remove the ball from Rondo, Pierce, and Barbosa's hands. Once that happens, I think we'll see our offense improve. Not that these 3 haven't been productive, but the ball is sticking too much when they grab the ball.
So you want Bass, KG, Terry, Lee, Sullinger, and Wilcox to be our playmakers?

Good luck with that.

We're 6th in TS%, 11th in TOV%, 4th in FT per FGA, and 30th in offensive rebounding. I struggle to see how removing the ball from our playmakers hands will help the one category that could really use a boost.

While we haven't been playing the toughest schedule defensively to start the season it hasn't been our offense that's the issue.

I want the ball to move, and these 3 aren't doing doing a good job of making that happen. Problem is that the first two are essential to our offense, so obviously, they need to have the ball in their hands, but I think they need to get the ball moving earlier in the shot clock and have the ball pass through them often in offensive possessions, but not hold to the ball as they've been doing.

As for Barbosa, I much rather have Terry handling the ball in all honesty.

The result of this is that players like Terry, Green, and Lee are barely touching the ball throughout the game, there's no rhythm to our offense. That we get results is because Rondo does find open players, but also because we are littered with good offensive players, not necessarily because we're running a good offensive system.

There are other options, if we want Rondo to keep the ball throughout the full shot-clock, then we need to increase the pick setting on his defender, and he needs to be more aggressive towards the basket. And he needs to improve the pace. He's playing too slow at the moment. It's not an all or nothing, but as it stands,  I don't like the way our offense is running with some of our offensive weapons not touching the ball through much of the game.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2012, 02:24:02 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Rondo having the ball less so that Terry, Lee, Green get more chances with it doesn't strike me as a great formula.

Lee and Green aren't playmakers, they just aren't. Lee is a shooter and cutter and Green is just mediocre unless he's got a clear offensive mismatch.

I'm all for Terry getting more chances to create, but I understand why he hasn't as he hasn't done much with the chances we've given him.

In the end Rondo is our best playmaker by a huge margin right now, that's why he has the ball.

Again none of this strikes to the core of our issues, which is defense and rebounding.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2012, 02:31:08 PM »

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Rondo having the ball less so that Terry, Lee, Green get more chances with it doesn't strike me as a great formula.

Lee and Green aren't playmakers, they just aren't. Lee is a shooter and cutter and Green is just mediocre unless he's got a clear offensive mismatch.

I'm all for Terry getting more chances to create, but I understand why he hasn't as he hasn't done much with the chances we've given him.

In the end Rondo is our best playmaker by a huge margin right now, that's why he has the ball.

Again none of this strikes to the core of our issues, which is defense and rebounding.

The idea is not to put the ball in other playmakers, the idea is to make the defense work so it leads to easy baskets. We're not making the defense work because we're all standing around watching Rondo dribble out the clock. If not, we're giving the ball to Pierce who is dribbling into 4 defenders and not making the pass.

Our current system has a very poor rhythm and it's very predictable. Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2012, 02:34:32 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.
Here's the problem you think our offense is putrid because you don't enjoy watching it. Unfortunately the results don't bare out that our offense is putrid currently.

I do agree that there isn't enough off the ball movement consistently for the C's. But the answer to that isn't to pass the ball around the perimeter without a purpose.

If you want to see putrid offense, give it to even worse playmakers than Rondo and watch them try to break down the defense with players sagging off of Rondo.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2012, 02:39:24 PM »

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Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.
Here's the problem you think our offense is putrid because you don't enjoy watching it. Unfortunately the results don't bare out that our offense is putrid currently.

I do agree that there isn't enough off the ball movement consistently for the C's. But the answer to that isn't to pass the ball around the perimeter without a purpose.

If you want to see putrid offense, give it to even worse playmakers than Rondo and watch them try to break down the defense with players sagging off of Rondo.

Then pass the ball back to Rondo and make them pay for it, it's that simple.

You're equalizing moving the ball to lack of Rondo involvement in our offense, which is simply not true or what I'm proposing.

Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2012, 02:51:02 PM »

Online pearljammer10

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Things Id change are

(Obviously) less small ball...

Spot running Ray Allen's plays with Terry because it takes way too long to get into the offense. Plus, Terry runs off screens opposite then what he should, anyone else notice this?

More plays with better ball and off ball movement on offense. We take too many seconds trying to feed the ball into the post and we waste a lot of time stand around watching this happen.
DKC: GM Boston Celtics: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuCTllmkG26udHRaa0xrWm1qZTExaHltaEdtZzVRNFE&usp=sharing#gid=50
PG:Rondo/Miller/Udrih/Dinwiddle
SG:Afflalo/Williams/Delladova
SF:Green/Young
PF:Hill/Powell
C:Hibbert/Nurcik/Bynum

 

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