Author Topic: Israel v Hamas  (Read 7817 times)

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Online Celtics4ever

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2012, 02:06:53 PM »
I think Israel will win.   I think they will do it in a heavy handed way that kills civilians and protects their troops.

I am not a Christian nor a Muslin or a Jew.    I can see valid issues on both points.   I think Israel has done plenty to merit criticism though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

However, I think they have a huge target on their backs and have to be ruthless to survive.  I think all the claims on this land from a religious prospective are idiotic.   Why don't we borrow Atlas from Gilbratar while we are at it.   Guns and weapons will make one's cause right more than religion and the victors write the history.

I do know people who think that the US was created to defend Israel.   I think this is dumb as heck as Israel wasn't even in existence at this time.  The bottom line is the Israeli's have excellent crack troops, they don't trust in good but rather gear and training and they win.  If we did not shackle them with restraint they probably would have cleaned house by now.

Online D.o.s.

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2012, 02:11:50 PM »
I think Israel will win.   I think they will do it in a heavy handed way that kills civilians and protects their troops.

I am not a Christian nor a Muslin or a Jew.    I can see valid issues on both points.   I think Israel has done plenty to merit criticism though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

However, I think they have a huge target on their backs and have to be ruthless to survive.  I think all the claims on this land from a religious prospective are idiotic.   Why don't we borrow Atlas from Gilbratar while we are at it.   Guns and weapons will make one's cause right more than religion and the victors write the history.

I do know people who think that the US was created to defend Israel.   I think this is dumb as heck as Israel wasn't even in existence at this time.  The bottom line is the Israeli's have excellent crack troops, they don't trust in good but rather gear and training and they win.  If we did not shackle them with restraint they probably would have cleaned house by now.

I agree with pretty much everything you typed.

But the US was created to defend Israel? That's not just dumb, that's just completely wrong.
Michael Jordan: It's a man's game, and you can't play.
 Bill Murray: It's 'cause I'm white, isn't it?
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Bill Murray: Larry's not white. Larry's clear.

not sure the point of this thread.

Offline Brendan

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2012, 02:22:14 PM »
Everyone gets up in arms about the displaced "Palestinians" - but what about the displaced Jews from the arab block countries since the end of the colonial period? The oldest Jewish communities in the world have been systematically whiped out - communities that survived the Romans, the Crusades, and the Caliphate. Israel has absorbed those people. But Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon have kept the "refugees" in camps to keep political pressure on the Israelis. Frankly I favor a one state solution at this point. I think Israel should annex all of Gaza and the West Bank and say "we're done with this charade, you've had decades to settle in peacefully, but didn't do it. We're moving on."

Well, if we're going to go that far back, then we should be talking about reparations for descendents of slaves.
Whose going far back? This is all post WW2 stuff coincident with the establishment of Israel. The only logical way to support Hamas, is if you see Israel as an occupier. That's all I'm refuting (not anyone on this board btw - just a general meme I've seen on twitter, fb, and internet in general.)

Offline Brendan

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2012, 02:28:11 PM »
On democracy -

I'm less than optimistic that it will be a moderating force. Tyranny & fanaticism from democratically elected leaders and a "mob"ilized majority is a common historical occurrence.

Plus we often see one wave election - then a series of political changes to lock in rule, c.f. Venezuela.

Online LooseCannon

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2012, 03:43:36 PM »
In the long run, you either have to move towards democracy or else you have to plan for the permanent subjugation of Palestinians or you have to wipe them off the face of the earth.

And you can't have legitimate democracy unless you make the process open to the possibility of groups like Hamas winning elections.
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Online csfansince60s

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2012, 04:04:06 PM »

What's the difference between a drone strike and a rocket?

In theory (and I emphasize those words), a drone strike is a surgically precise strike at a specific strategic target.

The rockets that Hamas launches are more like someone shooting into a house hoping to hit someone, anyone.

The first sounds like a military action to me and the second sounds like an act of terror.

Of course, if you are on the terrorists' side, military actions by the people that you are trying to terrorize  are really terrorist acts themselves, and you're acts of terror that indiscriminately kill civilians is a military act furthering your cause because even the civilians are your enemies.

Sounds like a rationalization for intentionally killing innocents to me.

Offline Master Po

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2012, 04:07:41 PM »
I so very badly want to comment on this ...but over time (very slowly) I have learned it just doesn't matter.

Offline JSD

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2012, 02:54:07 AM »


Some good journalism.

Offline JSD

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2012, 03:01:54 AM »
Hamas is a terrorist organization, bent on destruction of Israel, allied with Iran, indiscriminately launching missiles into Israel trying to hit civilian targets.

That's pretty much my perspective.  I hope Israel annihilates them. 

I'm not opposed to a Palestinian state in theory.  I am opposed to rewarding terrorism, and I'm opposed to the people who cheer terrorism and vote to put terrorists into power.

See I just can't believe this. I can't imagine Roy H. Cheering on the death of thousands of innocent lives.

Offline goCeltics

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2012, 04:53:26 AM »
people have a right not to be blockage and usurped to death, i would rather fight to death than be starved in a refugee camp waiting for a "precision  strike" to take me out

fighting, death and victory are mercies from god to the oppressed.

they should know better they tried the "targeted assaination" in lebanon for 20 years, i can name them, every time they caried one out, the resitance strengthed and untill they had no choice but to withdraw

Online Roy H.

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2012, 07:34:00 AM »
people have a right not to be blockage and usurped to death, i would rather fight to death than be starved in a refugee camp waiting for a "precision  strike" to take me out

fighting, death and victory are mercies from god to the oppressed.

they should know better they tried the "targeted assaination" in lebanon for 20 years, i can name them, every time they caried one out, the resitance strengthed and untill they had no choice but to withdraw

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Offline Mr Green

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2012, 08:35:43 AM »
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Online Moranis

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2012, 10:08:15 AM »
Palestinians can live in Israel.  Some of them do.  You know the ones that realize they are a part of government and live by the laws of the land.  When crazy nut jobs try to overthrow the U.S. government or even just try to live on their "compound" outside U.S. laws, the U.S. takes swift and decisive action.  Can you imagine what the U.S. would do if a terrorist organization was lobbing missiles into the U.S. from Canada or Mexico?  The military response would be swift and devastating and unfortunately a lot of "innocents" would be injured.  Israel is far more lenient than I would ever be if I was in power.  The people in Gaza let Hamas operate and they must live with those consequences, if you don't like it, kick Hamas out, live peacefully with your neighbors and you won't get bombed.  It really is that simple. 
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Offline foulweatherfan

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2012, 10:52:00 AM »
I don't have a "good guy/bad guy" stance on this, because any informed attempt to make that distinction turns into a debate about the particular shade and thickness of the considerable amounts of blood on each side's hands.  The only "good guys" in this mess are the non-combatants on each side who have been swept up in the conflict.

But it seems like in the long run there are only three real options - separate, independent Palestinian and Israeli states, an Israeli state where Palestinians are permanently second-class citizens subjugated by the government, or a true shared state where Israelis have to allow the possibility that Palestinian interests will have a strong voice, maybe even a majority at times, in the government.  The only other option is genocide/mass exile.

That's what it boils down to for me - personally I lean toward a true shared state, although truly independent states would be fine if there was a way to do it fairly.  But it's very alarming to me to see how many Americans seem to prefer permanent subjugation or even eradication.  Seems to fly in the face of every value we're supposed to hold dear.

Offline JSD

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Re: Israel v Hamas
« Reply #59 on: November 21, 2012, 11:09:49 AM »
I don't have a "good guy/bad guy" stance on this, because any informed attempt to make that distinction turns into a debate about the particular shade and thickness of the considerable amounts of blood on each side's hands.  The only "good guys" in this mess are the non-combatants on each side who have been swept up in the conflict.

But it seems like in the long run there are only three real options - separate, independent Palestinian and Israeli states, an Israeli state where Palestinians are permanently second-class citizens subjugated by the government, or a true shared state where Israelis have to allow the possibility that Palestinian interests will have a strong voice, maybe even a majority at times, in the government.  The only other option is genocide/mass exile.

That's what it boils down to for me - personally I lean toward a true shared state, although truly independent states would be fine if there was a way to do it fairly.  But it's very alarming to me to see how many Americans seem to prefer permanent subjugation or even eradication.  Seems to fly in the face of every value we're supposed to hold dear.

Well said. Tp

 

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