Israel v Hamas

[D.o.s.]

Likewise, I'd request that you not paint things with such a broad brush.

What's the difference between a drone strike and a rocket?

[LooseCannon]

I'm not opposed to a Palestinian state in theory.  I am opposed to rewarding terrorism, and I'm opposed to the people who cheer terrorism and vote to put terrorists into power.

I'd disagree with that.  I believe in democracy, and part of that means giving people the freedom to choose the "wrong" leaders. 

Whether or not Palestinians should have their own state is something that should not be contingent upon "good" behavior.

[apc]

The good thing about topics like this is gives you insight behind the screen names of the morality on this board.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, bent on destruction of Israel, allied with Iran, indiscriminately launching missiles into Israel trying to hit civilian targets. Israel is a US ally, liberal democracy, that would leave Gaza alone if it would bring peace (they've tried that it doesn't work.) So yeah, I'm on Israel's side. Are there civilian casualties? Yes, but it's clear Israel is trying to avoid them.

Everyone gets up in arms about the displaced "Palestinians" - but what about the displaced Jews from the arab block countries since the end of the colonial period? The oldest Jewish communities in the world have been systematically whiped out - communities that survived the Romans, the Crusades, and the Caliphate. Israel has absorbed those people. But Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon have kept the "refugees" in camps to keep political pressure on the Israelis. Frankly I favor a one state solution at this point. I think Israel should annex all of Gaza and the West Bank and say "we're done with this charade, you've had decades to settle in peacefully, but didn't do it. We're moving on."

Well said, TP

[nickagneta]

Honestly, I think there's enough blame for what is happening on both sides of this to go around. I would also include the Western powers that decided creating an Israeli state while displacing hundreds of thousands of Muslims in that blame pie.

I don't support terrorism, but let's be honest, the American government has supported it throughout the Arab world, if it benefited them at the time. The USA might have supplied more terrorist groups with arms than any other country in the world.

I hate to say it but I don't think the Jewish/Muslim wars will ever be settled until one or the other religion is wiped off the face of the planet or until a worldwide event occurs that makes religion obsolete.

And I don't think either side has a handle on being the good guys in this war. We are currently aligned with Israel but I would feel better about if our country started distancing themselves from the Jewish/Muslim conflict and try to be the mediator to finding a peace. And if peace can't be found, let them fight it out and stay the heck out of it.

[Change]

Fun fact: our own military service and the plight of ancient Jewish communities have little to no bearing on the current situation:

That there are loads of innocent civilians in Gaza. There are loads of innocent civilians in Israel. This is not going to end well for either group, and all the violence is doing is radicalizing each side against the other.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that both sides are never going to stop committing acts of terror, whether it be an air strike, a car bomb, or a rocket, as long as the current leaderships in both groups have a say.

You aren't going out on a limb. Both sides will stop at nothing. My view is bit darker. When Arab world come out of this dark age (century long one), and develop like Chinese are right now catches up to Israel's military advancement. What then? And they decides to flex military muscles like Israeli have been doing for half century now. In an effort to take back the land what was "stolen" and occupied.

This is worst case scenario in my opinion. Because if Israel feels trapped, they won't hesitate to use their Nuclear arsenal on its neighbors. They have stockpiled approx 200 warheads for a reason. We could be looking at nuclear armageddon. Extremist on both sides sure will love that. A dispute over a plot of land in the desert ends up destroying our planet. smh

sorry for my bleak conclusion. Hopefully international community resolves this conflict before it gets to that point. We are ways away still. As the Arab World and Muslim world at large waking up from century long coma. Many more twists and turns in this saga that's for sure.

[Amonkey]

I agree with a lot of the people who say that blame goes both ways. Israel could be doing some legitimate outreach towards the people instead of being greedy and taking more and more land in the name of Israel. I think the Palestinians have a more right of the land but at the same time, I completely agree with the Israel in their right to protect their citizens. If somebody was shooting at us, I would expect our government to take all the right measures to protect us from the people shooting at us.

But one point I would also like to make. It does make sense of the blockade they have in place. If Hamas is making all these rockets with the blockade being strictly enforced, imagine what they would be capable of doing if Iran and Hamas' allies could send more powerful and dangerous weapons to Hamas. I was opposed to Israel's action when they invaded the Turkish ship trying to cross to blockade, but I now understand the reasoning.

[LooseCannon]

I hate to say it but I don't think the Jewish/Muslim wars will ever be settled until one or the other religion is wiped off the face of the planet or until a worldwide event occurs that makes religion obsolete.

I can see a more moderate Islam developing, but it's going only going to happen as a result of democracy being established.  If we require it as a pre-condition for allowing Arabs to have democracy, it will never happen.  That's why, in the long run, I think that the Muslim Brotherhood winning democratic elections in Egypt is an improvement over the Mubarak regime.  We should be looking to create space for the Arab/Muslim world to evolve in a process that will take decades, at the risk that it takes too long or never happens, instead of looking for gatekeepers who will hold back throngs of what some might see as barbarian hordes.

[billgiddens]

I find many of your comments here depressing.

Do you guys ever wonder why you never hear anything less than positive about Israel from any sizable media outlet?

Criticizing Israel is taboo in this country, and speaking out of line has great consequences. Charges of anti-Semitism and Nazism are the least of it, and those are serious charges to cast about willy nilly.

Ever wonder why Israel, with 200-400 nuclear weapons, is immune from nuclear inspections like every other country?

Ever wonder why every Presidential candidate tries to outdo each other in entangling their loyalties?

You know who has the power by who you cannot criticize. Some of you have never heard anything other than pro-Israel propaganda.

We were all raised on lies, by design. Now you guys will cheer as Israel bankrupts the US by dragging us into war with Iran over more non-existent WMDs.

Israel officially put Gaza on a diet 3 years ago. The majority of the children there show significant signs of malnourishment. They are only trapped in Gaza because a bunch of Europeans used terror to drive their grandparents out of their homes.

Netanyahu would have lost this election. millions of Israeli Jews marching in the streets against the 1% and its policies.

Israel has expanded its borders almost weekly for the last 20 years. Settler fanatics are protected by soldiers while they literally terrorize Palestinian natives.

 

[LooseCannon]

Criticizing Israel is taboo in this country, and speaking out of line has great consequences. Charges of anti-Semitism and Nazism are the least of it, and those are serious charges to cast about willy nilly.

That's why I think people who want to argue against Israel should explore parallels to South Africa rather than Nazi Germany.  Hint: if you want argue in favor of the Palestinians, you should examine the history of black violence against whites in South Africa.

[billgiddens]

Here's the real story of Gaza, told by an Israeli Jew of conscience:

"Closed Zone" - Short Israeli Animation About Gaza Strip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9-odrMH-vo

[billgiddens]

Criticizing Israel is taboo in this country, and speaking out of line has great consequences. Charges of anti-Semitism and Nazism are the least of it, and those are serious charges to cast about willy nilly.

That's why I think people who want to argue against Israel should explore parallels to South Africa rather than Nazi Germany.  Hint: if you want argue in favor of the Palestinians, you should examine the history of black violence against whites in South Africa.

Israel negotiated the sale of Nukes to Apartheid South Africa. But South Africa never decided that God wanted the white south african to expand its borders to the Euphrates, like they now believe in Israel.

It's in the Tora or something, and they teach it to the Israeli army now:

Israeli leaders are also advocates of 'Greater Israel'
At a ceremony marking the end of basic training that recently took place somewhere in Israel, the keynote speaker quoted Biblical verses. The verses he chose did not come from the prophets' visions of peace and morality. Nor did he speak about our right to the land in the narrow sense of the term.

Instead, he cited maximalist verses from the Book of Joshua: "Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, to you have I given it, as I spoke unto Moses ... From the wilderness, and this Lebanon, even unto the great river, the river Euphrates."

Suddenly, when they speak about one state from the sea to the river, it is no longer clear which river they are talking about. If this is the message being sent by the Israel Defense Forces at this very moment, how can we complain about the hilltop youth?

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israeli-leaders-are-also-advocates-of-greater-israel-1.402482

The plan has been to wipe out most of the Middle East since 1996, but it needed a "New Pearl Harbor" before it could be implemented.

[billgiddens]

Criticizing Israel is taboo in this country, and speaking out of line has great consequences. Charges of anti-Semitism and Nazism are the least of it, and those are serious charges to cast about willy nilly.

That's why I think people who want to argue against Israel should explore parallels to South Africa rather than Nazi Germany.  Hint: if you want argue in favor of the Palestinians, you should examine the history of black violence against whites in South Africa.

Interesting, Loose Cannon, I'll look into that.

Much of modern history deserves a patient re-examination. Machiavellian elites write the history.

[D.o.s.]

Again, it's a two way street. I'm morally opposed to the blockade on Gaza, but I also empathize with the Israelis who live with the reality of Hamas-launched rockets.

Yes, you can very easily make the argument that the Israeli response is significantly more damaging than any rocket strike--like someone else said earlier, there's no salary cap for retaliation. And to a certain degree, that's true, but it doesn't give Hamas (or any other organization) ethical carte blanche.

[billgiddens]

"like someone else said earlier, there's no salary cap for retaliation. And to a certain degree, that's true, but it doesn't give Hamas (or any other organization) ethical carte blanche."

By that logic, Hamas would have been right to destroy Israel because of the blockade which kills people every day for lack of medicine and food.

When you run a blockade like that, and then shoot a 10 year old kid playing ball, anybody would retaliate. Israel provoked this because of the election. Exactly 4 years ago, Israel did the exact same thing, right after the election and they finished right after inauguration.

[Moranis]

I'm not opposed to a Palestinian state in theory.  I am opposed to rewarding terrorism, and I'm opposed to the people who cheer terrorism and vote to put terrorists into power.

I'd disagree with that.  I believe in democracy, and part of that means giving people the freedom to choose the "wrong" leaders. 

Whether or not Palestinians should have their own state is something that should not be contingent upon "good" behavior.

Yeah but they did have their own state and consistently attacked Israel, got all the land taken away when they lost those multitude of wars.  When you do bad things and lose there are consequences.  YOu can't just act like the crap in the past didn't happen.