Author Topic: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league  (Read 1966 times)

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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2012, 09:57:18 AM »

Offline relja

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The only bench that is even close to ours is the Clips' and for only 1 reason: Jamal Crawford.

Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2012, 10:02:19 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The Celtics big man team is horrible.  KG is the only above average player in his role on the entire team.  Bass is well below average as starting PF's, Sullinger is well below average as a backup PF (at this point, he will get better), Wilcox is probably about average as a backup center (though he will get hurt any day now), Darko is below average as a 5th big man (and one who has only played in 1 game), and the C's don't have a 6th big man.

Barbosa, Terry, and Green are great at the 1/2/3 and would start on a lot of teams, but you can't just ignore the 4/5 positions which just aren't very good.


That's the issue when trying to build big men bench through FA and late draft picks.  Good to decent big men cost to much and team try to hang onto them.
Oh I know and it is why I don't think the Celtics are a real contender without a trade to bring in another legit big man to pair with KG (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao, etc.).  The team just doesn't have the horses down low, and it will be the teams downfall.  Even a lesser overall talented team like Philly or Indy, could easily beat Boston because of their talent down low. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:42:54 AM by Moranis »
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2012, 11:43:01 AM »

Offline blastoidesroidsnoids

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The Celtics big man team is horrible.  KG is the only above average player in his role on the entire team.  Bass is well below average as starting PF's, Sullinger is well below average as a backup PF (at this point, he will get better), Wilcox is probably about average as a backup center (though he will get hurt any day now), Darko is below average as a 5th big man (and one who has only played in 1 game), and the C's don't have a 6th big man.

Barbosa, Terry, and Green are great at the 1/2/3 and would start on a lot of teams, but you can't just ignore the 4/5 positions which just aren't very good.


That's the issue when trying to build big men bench through FA and late draft picks.  Good to decent big men cost to much and team try to hang onto them.
Oh I know and it is why I don't think the Celtics are a real contender without a trade to bring in another legit big man to pair with KG (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao, etc.).  The team just doesn't have the horses down low, and it will be the teams downfall.  Even a lesser overall talented team like Philly or Indy, could easily beat Boston because of their talent down low.
One thing though that most people on here dont undertsand is how much more of a defensive monster KG is in the post season.  He doesnt worry much about conserving energy or hard body contact, where as during the season you can tell that he completely avoids contact and uses barely any energy on some plays.

Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2012, 12:39:43 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The Celtics big man team is horrible.  KG is the only above average player in his role on the entire team.  Bass is well below average as starting PF's, Sullinger is well below average as a backup PF (at this point, he will get better), Wilcox is probably about average as a backup center (though he will get hurt any day now), Darko is below average as a 5th big man (and one who has only played in 1 game), and the C's don't have a 6th big man.

Barbosa, Terry, and Green are great at the 1/2/3 and would start on a lot of teams, but you can't just ignore the 4/5 positions which just aren't very good.


That's the issue when trying to build big men bench through FA and late draft picks.  Good to decent big men cost to much and team try to hang onto them.
Oh I know and it is why I don't think the Celtics are a real contender without a trade to bring in another legit big man to pair with KG (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao, etc.).  The team just doesn't have the horses down low, and it will be the teams downfall.  Even a lesser overall talented team like Philly or Indy, could easily beat Boston because of their talent down low.
One thing though that most people on here dont undertsand is how much more of a defensive monster KG is in the post season.  He doesnt worry much about conserving energy or hard body contact, where as during the season you can tell that he completely avoids contact and uses barely any energy on some plays.
I get that, but it won't matter if Bass is next to him and the walking wounded of Wilcox, Darko, and Collins are backing him up.

Last year we were toast when Bosh came back for Miami.  Just a total difference maker in that series and totally changed the outcome.  If Chicago hadn't gone out against philly, good chance they beat us, and that is without Rose, because we had no answer for Noah, Boozer, and co. down low. 

With all the free agent moves Boston made, they didn't address the real problem on the team at all.  In my mind it was a terrible off season as not only is the team not any closer to a title, it has no cap space for 3 years to get a real difference maker to pair with Rondo.
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2012, 12:48:13 PM »

Offline Yogi

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Bass is below average starter? 
This has to be a joke.
Sullinger and Wilcox are not enough quality for people? 
Who would rather have Antwan Jamison and Jordan Hill?  Collison and Thabeet?  Rashard Lewis and Udonis Haslem?  Gibson and Mohammed?  Blatche and Evans?  Wallace and Camby?  Turiaf and Hollins? please...
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2012, 01:32:44 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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Bass is below average starter? 
This has to be a joke.
Sullinger and Wilcox are not enough quality for people? 
Who would rather have Antwan Jamison and Jordan Hill?  Collison and Thabeet?  Rashard Lewis and Udonis Haslem?  Gibson and Mohammed?  Blatche and Evans?  Wallace and Camby?  Turiaf and Hollins? please...

this

Wilcox is an energy guy and hustles. I mean compare him to the list you gave, Wilcox will outrun all of them

and Bass is not a below average starter. He's a big dude and can post. I mean yes he can fall in love with his jumper sometimes, but he can also post up in mismatches...

We can still improve, but I'm still satisfied with these "below average" players

Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2012, 01:42:46 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I haven't been watching the games that much, how has Terry been doing?

Didnt get many chances tonight but he's been finishing what he's been given at a reasonable clip so far.
Yeah Doc went big with Green/Pierce at the wings along with two true bigs and Barbosa for much of the game.

It was good for a lot of easy buckets on Foye/Haywood via the matchup of Pierce/Green and eventually they swapped Millsap onto Green defensively.

I know we have a deep bench and a lot of guys we'd like to get minutes for, but Jeff Green should be playing 30 a game—not only to justify his contract, but because I think he needs that many minutes in order to have an impact, and will have an impact if given that many minutes. Plus, I like having him and Pierce on the floor together at times—seems to create some matchup problems for the opponent.

Great seeing my boys Barbosa and C-Dub playing so well. More of that, please!
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2012, 01:43:25 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Bass is below average starter? 
This has to be a joke.
Sullinger and Wilcox are not enough quality for people? 
Who would rather have Antwan Jamison and Jordan Hill?  Collison and Thabeet?  Rashard Lewis and Udonis Haslem?  Gibson and Mohammed?  Blatche and Evans?  Wallace and Camby?  Turiaf and Hollins? please...
Yes Bass is one of the worst starting PF's in basketball.  I went through this in a different thread a couple of days ago and Booker is the only starting PF that is clearly worse than Bass and that has no real shot of being better than him any time soon (bass is better right now than guys like Thomas Robinson, but probably won't be for long).

Bass is a very limited player on the whole.  He is a terrible rebounder for the position, isn't a great ball handler, isn't athletic, has a low BBIQ, isn't a very good team defender and is limited as a man defender, etc.  He is a very good mid-range shooter and that is about it.
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2012, 01:49:14 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Bass is below average starter? 
This has to be a joke.
Sullinger and Wilcox are not enough quality for people? 
Who would rather have Antwan Jamison and Jordan Hill?  Collison and Thabeet?  Rashard Lewis and Udonis Haslem?  Gibson and Mohammed?  Blatche and Evans?  Wallace and Camby?  Turiaf and Hollins? please...

this

Wilcox is an energy guy and hustles. I mean compare him to the list you gave, Wilcox will outrun all of them

and Bass is not a below average starter. He's a big dude and can post. I mean yes he can fall in love with his jumper sometimes, but he can also post up in mismatches...

We can still improve, but I'm still satisfied with these "below average" players

Yeah, me too. Favors has lots of potential, but Boston's in "win now" mode, so I'm not sure it would be good if we were relying on him to make big contributions this season. Such is also the case, but even more pronounced, with Kanter.

Bass's rebounding has improved this season, and Wilcox is providing great energy, not to mention a reasonable amount of points and rebounds for the minutes he's getting. And both of them are more athletic and mobile than Kanter.
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2012, 02:51:34 PM »

Offline Professor of Rondology

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Bass is below average starter? 
This has to be a joke.
Sullinger and Wilcox are not enough quality for people? 
Who would rather have Antwan Jamison and Jordan Hill?  Collison and Thabeet?  Rashard Lewis and Udonis Haslem?  Gibson and Mohammed?  Blatche and Evans?  Wallace and Camby?  Turiaf and Hollins? please...
Yes Bass is one of the worst starting PF's in basketball.  I went through this in a different thread a couple of days ago and Booker is the only starting PF that is clearly worse than Bass and that has no real shot of being better than him any time soon (bass is better right now than guys like Thomas Robinson, but probably won't be for long).

Bass is a very limited player on the whole.  He is a terrible rebounder for the position, isn't a great ball handler, isn't athletic, has a low BBIQ, isn't a very good team defender and is limited as a man defender, etc.  He is a very good mid-range shooter and that is about it.

I have to disagree with your assessment of Bass.  He isn't a great rebounder but I definitely wouldn't say he's terrible.  Below average maybe, but not terrible.  His team D is solid, or else we would not have brought him back.  Remember- he started at PF for the best defensive team in the league for the latter half of last year.

I'm not ecstatic with the big man situation- the Celtics could certainly use a second defensive-minded center to give us some backbone when KG's on the bench- but all we're missing is a backup center, not an all star. What we need is for the guys we signed SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT ROLE(Darko and Collins) to show Doc something in practice. If they earn some PT in these meaningless early-season games, not only will it reduce KG's burn, they might be ready in the playoffs if/when we call their names for short stints.

This is just one man's opinion, but if you're waiting for the Celtics to make a significant move that will get them an impact player, you'll be waiting awhile.  We went all in with THIS roster, and we have a [dang] good chance at winning it all if everything goes right (and every contender needs everything to go right to win it all).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 03:35:51 PM by Professor of Rondology »
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2012, 03:46:48 PM »

Offline Moranis

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This is just one man's opinion, but if you're waiting for the Celtics to make a significant move that will get them an impact player, you'll be waiting awhile.  We went all in with THIS roster, and we have a [dang] good chance at winning it all if everything goes right (and every contender needs everything to go right to win it all).
See this is where I totally disagree with you.  For Boston to win multiple teams need to have injuries to star players because the C's best will not be good enough against a number of other team's best.  Boston will not beat Miami unless it has an injury to at least one of the big 3 and frankly if Lebron is one of the healthy ones they still might beat us.  Same goes for the Lakers and Thunder.  Hell even Brooklyn, New York, Philadelphia, Indiana, and Chicago aren't going to be easy series for Boston to win. 

This team just isn't good enough to win a title as it is currently constructed without significant injuries to other teams.  Sad but true reality.
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2012, 04:27:37 PM »

Offline snively

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The Celtics big man team is horrible.  KG is the only above average player in his role on the entire team.  Bass is well below average as starting PF's, Sullinger is well below average as a backup PF (at this point, he will get better), Wilcox is probably about average as a backup center (though he will get hurt any day now), Darko is below average as a 5th big man (and one who has only played in 1 game), and the C's don't have a 6th big man.

Barbosa, Terry, and Green are great at the 1/2/3 and would start on a lot of teams, but you can't just ignore the 4/5 positions which just aren't very good.


That's the issue when trying to build big men bench through FA and late draft picks.  Good to decent big men cost to much and team try to hang onto them.
Oh I know and it is why I don't think the Celtics are a real contender without a trade to bring in another legit big man to pair with KG (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao, etc.).  The team just doesn't have the horses down low, and it will be the teams downfall.  Even a lesser overall talented team like Philly or Indy, could easily beat Boston because of their talent down low.
One thing though that most people on here dont undertsand is how much more of a defensive monster KG is in the post season.  He doesnt worry much about conserving energy or hard body contact, where as during the season you can tell that he completely avoids contact and uses barely any energy on some plays.
I get that, but it won't matter if Bass is next to him and the walking wounded of Wilcox, Darko, and Collins are backing him up.

Last year we were toast when Bosh came back for Miami.  Just a total difference maker in that series and totally changed the outcome.  If Chicago hadn't gone out against philly, good chance they beat us, and that is without Rose, because we had no answer for Noah, Boozer, and co. down low. 

With all the free agent moves Boston made, they didn't address the real problem on the team at all.  In my mind it was a terrible off season as not only is the team not any closer to a title, it has no cap space for 3 years to get a real difference maker to pair with Rondo.

I too am disappointed that the C's didn't really address their big man situation (we're already on pace to set another new record low in ORB% + the many defensive issues whenever KG rests), but that doesn't mean they had a terrible offseason.

While old weaknesses are as bad as ever, we have new strengths.  Last year if Rondo and Bradley were out and Ray was putting up a stinker like JET, do you think Dooling and Mickael Pietrus could have done anything close to what Barbosa and Green did last night?

I believe that we need to add another high quality big to break into the elite tier with Miami, OKC and maybe LAL (if they get their act together), but being arguably the 4th best team in the league is nothing to sniff at.
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Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2012, 04:44:47 PM »

Online BballTim

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This is just one man's opinion, but if you're waiting for the Celtics to make a significant move that will get them an impact player, you'll be waiting awhile.  We went all in with THIS roster, and we have a [dang] good chance at winning it all if everything goes right (and every contender needs everything to go right to win it all).
See this is where I totally disagree with you.  For Boston to win multiple teams need to have injuries to star players because the C's best will not be good enough against a number of other team's best.  Boston will not beat Miami unless it has an injury to at least one of the big 3 and frankly if Lebron is one of the healthy ones they still might beat us.  Same goes for the Lakers and Thunder.  Hell even Brooklyn, New York, Philadelphia, Indiana, and Chicago aren't going to be easy series for Boston to win. 

This team just isn't good enough to win a title as it is currently constructed without significant injuries to other teams.  Sad but true reality.

  There's a good chance we'll be significantly improved at sg and every backup spot compared to last year. We can easily win a title against healthy teams provided we're healthy. People have been throwing dirt on the team since 2009 and it's still not taking.

Re: We SHOULD have the best bench in the league
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2012, 07:51:22 PM »

Offline Professor of Rondology

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This is just one man's opinion, but if you're waiting for the Celtics to make a significant move that will get them an impact player, you'll be waiting awhile.  We went all in with THIS roster, and we have a [dang] good chance at winning it all if everything goes right (and every contender needs everything to go right to win it all).
See this is where I totally disagree with you.  For Boston to win multiple teams need to have injuries to star players because the C's best will not be good enough against a number of other team's best.  Boston will not beat Miami unless it has an injury to at least one of the big 3 and frankly if Lebron is one of the healthy ones they still might beat us.  Same goes for the Lakers and Thunder.  Hell even Brooklyn, New York, Philadelphia, Indiana, and Chicago aren't going to be easy series for Boston to win. 

This team just isn't good enough to win a title as it is currently constructed without significant injuries to other teams.  Sad but true reality.

  There's a good chance we'll be significantly improved at sg and every backup spot compared to last year. We can easily win a title against healthy teams provided we're healthy. People have been throwing dirt on the team since 2009 and it's still not taking.
We were this close to beating Miami last year. 

Miami added Chris Bosh, Ray Allen, and Rashard Lewis to their ECF roster.

The Celtics added Jeff Green, Jason Terry, Courtney Lee, Leandro Barbosa, Jared Sullinger, Chris Wilcox, and Avery Bradley.  Of course, we lost a key contributor in Ray but I don't think he was the reason we almost won that series. And finally, the Captain and 08 Finals MVP was hobbled and played well below his normal level. 

Factor in all of that and I just can't see how the 2012 Celtics are not an elite team.

What about this do people not see?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 08:03:08 PM by Professor of Rondology »
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