Author Topic: Are the Celts really a deep team?  (Read 4102 times)

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Are the Celts really a deep team?
« on: November 10, 2012, 02:10:26 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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A lot of people confuse what it really means to be deep?  A deep team isn't necessarily having a lot of guys that can play in a rotation.  Having 11 or 12 rotation players in most cases just means that you don't have a lot of guys that stand out.

In reality, good depth means that my sixth guy is better than your sixth guy, my seventh guy is better than your seventh guy, etc.  Of course, this does not take into account chemistry and match ups.

Anyway, we have a lot of players that have played regular minutes.  But I am not sure we're really a deep team.  At this point, having all these players seems to have done more harm than good.

Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 02:13:49 PM »

Offline Edgar

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At this point, having all these players seems to have done more harm than good.

Blame coaching

and I do think this team is a deep team
an somehow i disagree the best 6th man principle as depth
imho Depth is to have a player who can backup every position as good as your starter or at least better than the competition
based solely in stats and carrer the celtics have that

Its just being missused horribly
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Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 02:36:47 PM »

Online Fan from VT

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Yes we are deep. So is my septic tank.

Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 02:49:07 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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yes they are, but they are still a work in progress. Defense and communication are something they definitely need to work on

Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 03:18:37 PM »

Online csfansince60s

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At this point, having all these players seems to have done more harm than good.

Blame coaching

and I do think this team is a deep team
an somehow i disagree the best 6th man principle as depth
imho Depth is to have a player who can backup every position as good as your starter or at least better than the competition
based solely in stats and carrer the celtics have that

Its just being missused horribly

+1....Agree completely. This is a VERY deep team.

Doc just doesn't have the capability nor the mental agility to juggle and utilize all the talent that Ainge has provided him.

Just not one of Doc's strengths. To his credit, he knows his limitations which is why he tries to keep the number of players in his rotation to 8 or 9 at the most.

Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 03:46:58 PM »

Online LarBrd33

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No.  Boston fans tend to get themselves all worked up over nothing.  Terry has always been a bench player.  Lee is a bench player.  Barbosa is a bench player.   Those three are pretty much redundant.  That's not depth.

For our bigs we're weak.  KG is excellent  (though old), but beyond him we have two capable bench bigs (Sullinger and Bass) and a whole lot of trash.   

Nothing has changed since Shaq hobbled off the court.  We lack size next to KG.  Our 4th best player is lighting it up on MIami's bench right now.   But all of this was very predictable.  I had us playing .500 ball until Feb.  Give it until the trade deadline until you give up.

Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 03:47:35 PM »

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I would say they have two high level backups.
  • One of the league's finest reserves / combo guards in Jason Terry. A legitimate sixth man of the year candidate talent wise.
  • One if the league's best backup small forwards / combo forwards in Jeff Green. A player who should be one of the game's best 7th men.
From there, I would say they have
  • An above average but unexceptional backup two guard in Courtney Lee. Currently forced into a starter's role so this spot is empty for now.
  • Chris Wilcox gives them an average backup PF to slightly below average backup C.
Further down the list
  • Leandro Barbosa is a very strong backup combo guard. One of the better ones in league. Not quite at Jason Terry's level but a notch below that. Way too good a player to be stuck on such a minor role like he has in Boston. I really hate seeing him (potentially) waste a year of his career here. I think his impact is severely limited by Terry's presence. Also limited (impact-wise) when forced to play all of his minutes at SG instead of PG/SG. Doesn't fit the rotation well which is why he shouldn't be in it. Thus a third stinger. As a third string combo guard, Barbosa is elite.
  • I consider Darko Milicic to be an average to (more likely) a bit below average backup C. If he lost that extra weight he is carrying, Darko could be one of the best backup centers in the league but that isn't happening so I don't know why I keep saying it.
  • I had high hopes for Sullinger but he looks like a lost puppy dog out there at the moment. I had hoped on him being an average backup PF but right now he is a long ways from that. Fair chance he improves enough to meet those expectations as the year goes on but clearly not a sure thing given his current struggles.
  • Jason Collins is an elite third string center. A specialist (post defender). Most valuable third string center in the league for the past two years running. Played a key role in numerous Atlanta Hawks wins including a playoff series against Orlando two years ago. Can't ask for any more (contribution wise) out of a third string center. Very valuable player / specialist.
Overall, I would say they have one of the top 3-5 benches in the league.

Arguably the best bench in the league if they get some value out of Darko and/or Sully.

Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 03:54:27 PM »

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No.  Boston fans tend to get themselves all worked up over nothing.  Terry has always been a bench player.  Lee is a bench player.  Barbosa is a bench player.   Those three are pretty much redundant.  That's not depth.

For our bigs we're weak.  KG is excellent  (though old), but beyond him we have two capable bench bigs (Sullinger and Bass) and a whole lot of trash.   

Nothing has changed since Shaq hobbled off the court.  We lack size next to KG.  Our 4th best player is lighting it up on MIami's bench right now.   But all of this was very predictable.  I had us playing .500 ball until Feb.  Give it until the trade deadline until you give up.

My biggest issues with this assessment are:

Jason Terry may have come off the bench for most of his career, but he is unquestionably a good starter level player.

Wilcox is a rotation level player.  As a matter of fact, I would put him ahead of Sully at this stage of his career. 

You forgot to mention Jeff Green.  Yes, he's playing like crap right now, but he's an NBA starter level player who comes off the bench due to our depth.

And, of course, when Bradley (another starter level player) returns, we'll be even deeper.

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Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 03:55:57 PM »

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I see two big problems with the bench right now

#1 -- Doc is giving Courtney Lee and Brandon Bass too many minutes. Bass is a weak starter and Lee only a serviceable one. Fair enough giving the high level starters like Rondo, KG and Pierce big minutes (preferably 34mpg, 30mpg, 33-34mpg respectively) but Bass and Lee shouldn't be up around 30 a night with them. Bass is a 20-24 minute a night player and Lee should be given similar court time as a starter while Bradley is injured.

Those minutes should instead be given to Jason Terry (PG/SG) and Jeff Green (SF/PF). Neither player is being given enough court time to show how much of a game-changing presence they can be as bench players. They need more playing time!

There is no point in having top notch bench players if you refuse to give them the minutes necessary to be game-changing bench players.

#2 -- The Bass + Sully combinations (or Bass/Green) have really hurt the team. Once Doc works his way away from those lineups - which will hopefully be soon - the bench will look a lot more effective.

Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 03:58:33 PM »

Offline Edgar

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I see two big problems with the bench right now

#1 -- Doc is giving Courtney Lee and Brandon Bass too many minutes. Bass is a weak starter and Lee only a serviceable one. Fair enough giving the high level starters like Rondo, KG and Pierce big minutes (preferably 34mpg, 30mpg, 33-34mpg respectively) but Bass and Lee shouldn't be up around 30 a night with them. Bass is a 20-24 minute a night player and Lee should be given similar court time as a starter while Bradley is injured.

Those minutes should instead be given to Jason Terry (PG/SG) and Jeff Green (SF/PF). Neither player is being given enough court time to show how much of a game-changing presence they can be as bench players. They need more playing time!

#2 -- The Bass + Sully combinations (or Bass/Green) have really hurt the team. Once Doc works his way away from those lineups - which will hopefully be soon - the bench will look a lot more effective.


Agree in every single word
specially in the terry playing time
somehow force to Green to find his groove back
not that we are winning
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Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2012, 04:04:46 PM »

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I see two big problems with the bench right now

#1 -- Doc is giving Courtney Lee and Brandon Bass too many minutes. Bass is a weak starter and Lee only a serviceable one. Fair enough giving the high level starters like Rondo, KG and Pierce big minutes (preferably 34mpg, 30mpg, 33-34mpg respectively) but Bass and Lee shouldn't be up around 30 a night with them. Bass is a 20-24 minute a night player and Lee should be given similar court time as a starter while Bradley is injured.

Those minutes should instead be given to Jason Terry (PG/SG) and Jeff Green (SF/PF). Neither player is being given enough court time to show how much of a game-changing presence they can be as bench players. They need more playing time!

There is no point in having top notch bench players if you refuse to give them the minutes necessary to be game-changing bench players.

#2 -- The Bass + Sully combinations (or Bass/Green) have really hurt the team. Once Doc works his way away from those lineups - which will hopefully be soon - the bench will look a lot more effective.

Lee is getting 24.6 mpgs currently, with Terry at 25.6.  I definitely wouldn't mind upping Terry's by a couple and dropping Lee's by a couple.  But, that one is actually close to where it should be.

I completely agree on Green.  Unfortunately, most fans are probably feeling like he should have his minutes reduced right now, as opposed to raised.  He's definitely become the early scapegoat for all Celtics ills. 
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Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2012, 04:22:50 PM »

Online LarBrd33

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No.  Boston fans tend to get themselves all worked up over nothing.  Terry has always been a bench player.  Lee is a bench player.  Barbosa is a bench player.   Those three are pretty much redundant.  That's not depth.

For our bigs we're weak.  KG is excellent  (though old), but beyond him we have two capable bench bigs (Sullinger and Bass) and a whole lot of trash.   

Nothing has changed since Shaq hobbled off the court.  We lack size next to KG.  Our 4th best player is lighting it up on MIami's bench right now.   But all of this was very predictable.  I had us playing .500 ball until Feb.  Give it until the trade deadline until you give up.

My biggest issues with this assessment are:

Jason Terry may have come off the bench for most of his career, but he is unquestionably a good starter level player.

Wilcox is a rotation level player.  As a matter of fact, I would put him ahead of Sully at this stage of his career. 

You forgot to mention Jeff Green.  Yes, he's playing like crap right now, but he's an NBA starter level player who comes off the bench due to our depth.

And, of course, when Bradley (another starter level player) returns, we'll be even deeper.
I think Terry started for some teams by default, but was a liability defensively.  Kinda like Bass is starting for us, but isn't really a starting big.   Terry is a bench guard... kind of guy you throw in there to get you some buckets.  Lee is solid defensively... which is why he gets minutes.   But really neither of those guys is a starting SG.

Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2012, 04:32:33 PM »

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No.  Boston fans tend to get themselves all worked up over nothing.  Terry has always been a bench player.  Lee is a bench player.  Barbosa is a bench player.   Those three are pretty much redundant.  That's not depth.

For our bigs we're weak.  KG is excellent  (though old), but beyond him we have two capable bench bigs (Sullinger and Bass) and a whole lot of trash.   

Nothing has changed since Shaq hobbled off the court.  We lack size next to KG.  Our 4th best player is lighting it up on MIami's bench right now.   But all of this was very predictable.  I had us playing .500 ball until Feb.  Give it until the trade deadline until you give up.

My biggest issues with this assessment are:

Jason Terry may have come off the bench for most of his career, but he is unquestionably a good starter level player.

Wilcox is a rotation level player.  As a matter of fact, I would put him ahead of Sully at this stage of his career. 

You forgot to mention Jeff Green.  Yes, he's playing like crap right now, but he's an NBA starter level player who comes off the bench due to our depth.

And, of course, when Bradley (another starter level player) returns, we'll be even deeper.
I think Terry started for some teams by default, but was a liability defensively.  Kinda like Bass is starting for us, but isn't really a starting big.   Terry is a bench guard... kind of guy you throw in there to get you some buckets.  Lee is solid defensively... which is why he gets minutes.   But really neither of those guys is a starting SG.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html

Have a look at the JET's career numbers.  There's no way that guy's not a starting caliber guard.  He may have been coming off the bench, but he's always gotten starter level minutes. 

His role here is best as a sixth man, like it's always been, but he needs to be playing starter minutes, like he's always done. 
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Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2012, 05:35:20 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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No.  Boston fans tend to get themselves all worked up over nothing.  Terry has always been a bench player.  Lee is a bench player.  Barbosa is a bench player.   Those three are pretty much redundant.  That's not depth.

For our bigs we're weak.  KG is excellent  (though old), but beyond him we have two capable bench bigs (Sullinger and Bass) and a whole lot of trash.   

Nothing has changed since Shaq hobbled off the court.  We lack size next to KG.  Our 4th best player is lighting it up on MIami's bench right now.   But all of this was very predictable.  I had us playing .500 ball until Feb.  Give it until the trade deadline until you give up.

My biggest issues with this assessment are:

Jason Terry may have come off the bench for most of his career, but he is unquestionably a good starter level player.

Wilcox is a rotation level player.  As a matter of fact, I would put him ahead of Sully at this stage of his career. 

You forgot to mention Jeff Green.  Yes, he's playing like crap right now, but he's an NBA starter level player who comes off the bench due to our depth.

And, of course, when Bradley (another starter level player) returns, we'll be even deeper.
I think Terry started for some teams by default, but was a liability defensively.  Kinda like Bass is starting for us, but isn't really a starting big.   Terry is a bench guard... kind of guy you throw in there to get you some buckets.  Lee is solid defensively... which is why he gets minutes.   But really neither of those guys is a starting SG.
So this looks like a bench guy to you?


Re: Are the Celts really a deep team?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2012, 06:05:44 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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This team was declared one of the deepest teams in the league before the season started. One of the best benches too. Now all of a sudden we aren't deep? When does the coach get the blame? God forbid we EVER put blame on doc rivers.

 

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