Author Topic: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault  (Read 5277 times)

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Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2012, 11:08:29 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I'm putting the blame on JEFF GREEN.  He was supposed to be able to score  12-18 points a night and grab decent number of rebounds.
Maybe he would, but not by standing around in the corner.

He just looks lost out there to me.

 The Celtics are like a band all trying to play/learn their respective parts to may nice music .  Practice is painfully making some of them better.  I think JET and LEE and WILCOX and SULLY "GET IT"  and will help the the big three., down the road anyway.

Green on the otherhand is not on same sheet of music , he looks as lost on both sides of the ball. I cringe when I see him in there.  Well, I cringe too, when I see Bass come in when KG sits.  BASS and WILCOX/DARKO need to enter the game at the same time.  This is not rocket science, we would do this good coaching playing CITY LEAGUE.

Maybe its me, but anytime Green does something good, it is almost by accident.

As I've said, i think part of the problem is putting him at the 4. I know they rave about his quickness and that he can beat 4's up the floor, but to me he seems like a guy who wants to use his strength to penetrate, not some quick up post moves on a guy.

He also gets killed on defense the minute the other team goes "Fine, your quicker than our guy. we'll post you up to slow the game down."

When he has had those little stretches where he's looked good, it's been against 3's, who he can generally slash on and use his strength to get to the rim/line. He is also generally quick enough to stay with the SF on defense.

I dunno, it just seems when they play him at the 4, he doesn't want to post, so in the half court he ends up sitting in the corner waiting for an open 3 that never comes. When his matchup is a SF, he tends to iso him and try to get to the rim.

very well stated.

He never has a decisive advantage over anybody unless its an accident matchup or a scrub player.

Frankly I think Fab Melo and Joseph might contribute more.

Doc has got this whole ship headed in the WRONG direction.

Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2012, 11:10:17 AM »

Online Boris Badenov

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I agree with this. I think the reason Green is struggling have something to do with the position. He have advantage against most SF in the league but have disadvantage against most PF in the league. I don't think his "speed" is enough to play him consistently at 4. Please Doc, enough with the small ball unless it's effective.

Some data to back this up:

You can see our plus/minus numbers here:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22012&split=9&team=Celtics

Green's two best lineups by +/- so far are:

J. Terry   C. Wilcox   B. Bass   R. Rondo   J. Green
K. Garnett   P. Pierce   R. Rondo   J. Green   J. Sullinger

He is at SF in both.

His two worst are these:

K. Garnett   P. Pierce   J. Terry   L. Barbosa    J. Green
K. Garnett   P. Pierce   J. Terry   R. Rondo   J. Green

He is at PF in both.

These are small samples, but confirm everyone's impressions.

Also, he is last in +/- for the team at -32.

Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2012, 12:37:14 PM »

Offline MBunge

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This team has had a problem with effort for 3 years now and I wouldn't blame Doc for that.

Taking Bass out of the starting lineup and making him the team's back up center?  That's all on Doc.

Not playing Green much more at SF, even when Pierce is stinking the joint out?  That's on Doc.

The atrocious defensive rotations?  That's on somebody on the coaching staff because pretty much everybody on this team except the rookies has shown themselves capable of playing at least mediocre NBA defense.

The incredibly bad offensive chemistry?  Some of that's on Rondo, some on Pierce but some also has to go to Doc.  His obsession with small ball and refusal to look at other options, like playing either a big lineup or speeding up the tempo of the game, HAS NEVER WORKED with this team and certainly isn't going to now.

Mike

Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2012, 01:01:28 PM »

Offline Edgar

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I will say it one more time because I am pretty sure of this

Doc cant play lot of player rotations (hes better with limited lineups)
Doc Xs and Os are vastly overrated

And IF the players are underachieving its easy, sit them and play the others

The only game JET played well is the only game JET has had consitant minutes.

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Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2012, 07:41:59 PM »

Offline greg_kite

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Is it Doc's fault that Terry, Green and Lee have under achieved so far?

Pierce and KG are actualy playing well, Bass is solid and Rondo has been good but just not at his best.  Those are the guys that were in the rotation last year so hopefully it's just a matter of familiarity.  Once the rest of the new guys understand their roles better hopefully things turn around.


Pierce has played well really?
I'd say 20 points, 6.4 rebs and 3.4 assists is good, especially for a 35 year old.

Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2012, 08:00:11 PM »

Online Celtics18

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I will say it one more time because I am pretty sure of this

Doc cant play lot of player rotations (hes better with limited lineups)
Doc Xs and Os are vastly overrated

And IF the players are underachieving its easy, sit them and play the others

The only game JET played well is the only game JET has had consitant minutes.

It seems like you are contradicting yourself here.  On the one hand you say "if players are underachieving, sit them" yet on the other, you say; "Jet only produced when he got consistent minutes."

You see the flaw?  If Doc had pulled Jet when he was underachieving, he would have never gotten the chance to produce.

This has always been my problem with being so quick to blame the coach.  He's basically in a lose-lose scenario among a lot of fans.  If the team performs well, it's because of the talent, and he has nothing to do with it.  However, when they are struggling, it's all his fault. 
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Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2012, 09:00:44 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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why are yall saying we are 2-2 arent we 2-3, and do you agree with me now that Doc is a problem?

Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2012, 09:01:45 PM »

Offline Edgar

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why are yall saying we are 2-2 arent we 2-3, and do you agree with me now that Doc is a problem?

hes trying to fix it today
hopefully it will work
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Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2012, 11:45:12 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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After 4 games of a lineup he thought would work, maybe three games as I think Bass started game one, he demoted Lee and Sully and installed Terry and Bass as starters.

You can not make decisions on rotations based on what happens in a game or two. Patterns must be seen both in games and practice to prove something is or isn't eventually going to work. Knee jerk reactions as an NBA coach will lose you the clubhouse, the desire of the players to play for you and your job.

Doc tried something and over a 10 day to two week period wasn't getting the desired result and changed it. That's the mark of a good coach and show's that the fault of what was happening falls squarely on the shoulders of underachieving players(Green, Lee, Sully, Barbosa)

Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2012, 11:49:43 AM »

Offline Edgar

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I will say it one more time because I am pretty sure of this

Doc cant play lot of player rotations (hes better with limited lineups)
Doc Xs and Os are vastly overrated

And IF the players are underachieving its easy, sit them and play the others

The only game JET played well is the only game JET has had consitant minutes.

It seems like you are contradicting yourself here.  On the one hand you say "if players are underachieving, sit them" yet on the other, you say; "Jet only produced when he got consistent minutes."

You see the flaw?  If Doc had pulled Jet when he was underachieving, he would have never gotten the chance to produce.

This has always been my problem with being so quick to blame the coach.  He's basically in a lose-lose scenario among a lot of fans.  If the team performs well, it's because of the talent, and he has nothing to do with it.  However, when they are struggling, it's all his fault.

Well with players underachieving i was talking about his perennial gotos, bass, pierce and KG, rondo and for underachieving i count when theyre tired or gassed too.

But over all Doc seems to change a little his direction yesterday, hope he keeps it that way
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Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2012, 11:58:43 AM »

Offline MBunge

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That's the mark of a good coach and show's that the fault of what was happening falls squarely on the shoulders of underachieving players(Green, Lee, Sully, Barbosa)

It's a coach's job to put players in the right position to succeed.  Starting Sully and playing Bass as back-up center is about as far away from that as you can get.

And while I'd put more blame on the players for their defensive struggles, Barbosa, Lee and Green all appear to be suffering from the same [dang] thing that happens with the Celtic's overly complicated offense.  They get so wrapped up in fulfilling the rather limited roles that Doc assigns them that they can't just play the game.

Look at how Nate Robinson played before and after his time in Boston.  He was and is a substantially more productive offensive force than he was for the Celtics.

Mike

Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2012, 12:01:14 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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The offensive and defensive sets have been changed, therefore even the vets are trying to incorporate a new system, and trying to find the right fit for new players at the same time.  It is the first five games of the season.  Doc is doing the right thing, finding strenghs and weakness now, rather than fumbling around later.  The team will be fine.   Doc is a master at getting players to buy into his system. 

It is not rocket science.  We have good to great competent players who will be able to adapt.

I believe it. 
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Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2012, 12:20:43 PM »

Online Celtics18

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I will say it one more time because I am pretty sure of this

Doc cant play lot of player rotations (hes better with limited lineups)
Doc Xs and Os are vastly overrated

And IF the players are underachieving its easy, sit them and play the others

The only game JET played well is the only game JET has had consitant minutes.

It seems like you are contradicting yourself here.  On the one hand you say "if players are underachieving, sit them" yet on the other, you say; "Jet only produced when he got consistent minutes."

You see the flaw?  If Doc had pulled Jet when he was underachieving, he would have never gotten the chance to produce.

This has always been my problem with being so quick to blame the coach.  He's basically in a lose-lose scenario among a lot of fans.  If the team performs well, it's because of the talent, and he has nothing to do with it.  However, when they are struggling, it's all his fault.

Well with players underachieving i was talking about his perennial gotos, bass, pierce and KG, rondo and for underachieving i count when theyre tired or gassed too.

But over all Doc seems to change a little his direction yesterday, hope he keeps it that way

I agree that he seems to be changing his direction, but I also think that his players are helping him to change that direction. 

A huge example is Chris Wilcox;  having him start to be in condition to contribute really seems to change the outlook for this team.  Wilcox will never be mistaken for an all-star, but his role on this team is an extremely important one.  It means we don't have to go with two undersized power forwards on the front line together.

We can see that Doc is still trying to figure out what to do with Jeff Green.  This one is a conundrum as nobody seems to want to see Jeff get time at the four, but with Paul Pierce as our starting small forward, Doc is going to have to find creative ways to put Green in a position to be a key contributor.

Coaches have to take risks and make gambles.  When they pay off, he's a genius, when they don't he's a goat.  Mostly, throughout his career as the Cs head coach, Doc's gambits have paid off.  He's earned my trust.  So, I'm willing to give him time and benefit of doubt, even when I'm watching the game, and saying to the TV screen, "I wouldn't be playing that guy in this situation."
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Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2012, 12:21:02 PM »

Offline Pucaccia

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When the Celts got the 2008 team together, they went on a run and dominated right out of the gate. Didn't you think this team would at least come out stronger. I don't buy the "it will take time" argument. Something is wrong.

Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2012, 12:29:38 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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When the Celts got the 2008 team together, they went on a run and dominated right out of the gate. Didn't you think this team would at least come out stronger. I don't buy the "it will take time" argument. Something is wrong.
I don't think any vets will have the collective will and self confidence to do what KG, PP and RA pulled off in their first season.  However, that is Not to say that this team will not come together.  I think they will, and I do think it will be between now and 10 games in.  Wilcox and Green have a lot of emotional things to overcome, after their heart surgeries, also.  It is one thing to be told, and say, that you are 100% healthy.  It is quite another to prove it to yourself and dispell the fear.
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