Author Topic: Layoff announcements since election  (Read 6885 times)

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Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2012, 02:16:59 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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really becuase the rate was at 7.8 in Oct(remember, it was a sign the economy was improving) and now it's at 7.9.  My math is a bit shaky, but if more jobs are being added, I don't think the rate would increase.
Are you ignoring that the jobs numbers are from a different survey than the unemployment rate, or is it that you don't realize that they are different?

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

BLS doesn't count?

Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2012, 02:18:30 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Well it does seem like strange timing considering how long they have been shooting themselves in the foot as you mentioned and considering they will be releasing a product that they have been developing for the past 1.5 years in early 2013
It only seems like strange timing to people who haven't been following RIM for years. I am amazed that they've lasted this long. I can't wait to see the turd that they release next year.

Please reread said poster's replay and understand that he used one business as an example, and a tired line(non sequitur) to point out that the list I provided is meaningless.
No, it in fact undermines your entire point. Including RIM on that list, requires that one be completely ignorant of RIM's circumstances, which calls into question every other entry there.

It would be like I made a list of five-star restaurants, and included McDonald's. People would rightly suspect that I had no idea what I was talking about once they got to the Big Mac.

I'd expect the list to be questioned from those looking to make excuses for a failed economic policy.

I'm sure Energizer, Boeing, and Darden are run by complete morons. Yeah that's it, it's not bad policy, it's the business' fault.

I think the point is, you are throwing out a very short list  of companies who are laying people off since the election, then trying to say those layoffs are caused by 'bad policy'.  So first, there is absolutely no way to demonstrate causation - layoffs happen all the time.  Second, it ignores the thousands of other companies that make up the economy - as I mentioned before, many are hiring.


Mind you, this was just 48 hours after the election that these announcements were made. If these large businesses were feeling good about the economy and had a positive forecasts, they wouldn't be laying people off.


You can point to businesses hiring and I can point you to the unemployment rate and number of food stamp recipients.

No, it was 48 hours after the election that you cut and pasted this list.   Some - like RIM - havent even announced the alleged cuts.  Others - like Husqvarna - are foreign companies, so job cuts in Sweden probably arent indicative of Obama's failed policies.  Regardless, show me causation, show me the macro picture.

And if you can point to the unemployment rate to show that the business atmosphere is getting worse since the election I would be happy to look at it and acknowledge if it causes me to revise my opinion, or makes a good point.

It doesn't have to get worse, staying the same isn't exactly great is it.

The companies on that list(which make up a small percentage of the list) that are foreign generate a lot of sales here in the US. Demand has fallen, now why would that be? Could it be people don't have the money to buy their products because it's going to other places like increased energy and food costs?


The majority of employers like Energizer and Boeing on that list announced the cuts on the 7th or 8th. There were a few that did earlier, but they were the minority. It doesn't really matter because these people are out of jobs. I never said that it was only due to Obam's reelection, but a culmination of his first term. Strange these large companies are not adding jobs during a "recovery".


I got a blowout on my car tire the other day.  Interestingly, it happened right after Obama got elected.  Coincidence?  You tell me.

Luckily, though, my mechanic is giving me a good deal on a new used one, and he's going to fix the brakes, as well,  for cheap. 

Thank you, Obama. 

Now, you may say that there is absolutely no proof that those events are in any way related to the re-election of Barack Obama.  But, I say that they could be.  You can't prove me wrong.  Therefore, I'm right. 


Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2012, 02:26:17 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Guess we didn't need the auto bailout or green energy incentives huh.
I'll interpret this abrupt change of the subject as you conceding the point.

Creative destruction is important for capitalism, and and happens even in recoveries. Nobody would ever argue that bad companies only exist during recessions, after all.

You didn't disagree with me, you said that I wasn't paying attention to the company.  I'm sorry that you made such a strong statement without any justification and then ignore the evidence to the contrary.
Once again:

Well it does seem like strange timing considering how long they have been shooting themselves in the foot as you mentioned and considering they will be releasing a product that they have been developing for the past 1.5 years in early 2013
It only seems like strange timing to people who haven't been following RIM for years. I am amazed that they've lasted this long. I can't wait to see the turd that they release next year.

I don't see how you can consider this timing strange, unless you haven't been following how badly RIM has been doing. This is a company that is bleeding from every orifice. Layoffs should be obvious, not strange. If they are strange, it's only strange that they haven't happened sooner.

Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2012, 02:32:36 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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At this point, I got tired of looking up companies on the list, but it's clear that whoever put it together is either a lazy idiot or a deceitful, misleading partisan if the intent is to make it look like these jobs were lost because Obama was re-elected.

It's from Glenn Beck's website.  So I'd like to go with "all of the above".

I've lost track.  Is getting news from Glenn Beck a notch above or a notch below getting news from Alex Jones these days?

Did Glenn make these layoff notices up? Do tell if you have insight.

My insight is the first thing quoted in this post.
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Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2012, 02:34:47 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Guess we didn't need the auto bailout or green energy incentives huh.
I'll interpret this abrupt change of the subject as you conceding the point.

Creative destruction is important for capitalism, and and happens even in recoveries. Nobody would ever argue that bad companies only exist during recessions, after all.

You didn't disagree with me, you said that I wasn't paying attention to the company.  I'm sorry that you made such a strong statement without any justification and then ignore the evidence to the contrary.
Once again:

Well it does seem like strange timing considering how long they have been shooting themselves in the foot as you mentioned and considering they will be releasing a product that they have been developing for the past 1.5 years in early 2013
It only seems like strange timing to people who haven't been following RIM for years. I am amazed that they've lasted this long. I can't wait to see the turd that they release next year.

I don't see how you can consider this timing strange, unless you haven't been following how badly RIM has been doing. This is a company that is bleeding from every orifice. Layoffs should be obvious, not strange. If they are strange, it's only strange that they haven't happened sooner.

You can admit that you didn't know about the governmental approvals their new product had.  It seems strange that they would layoff employees after the "Big Government" candidate won. 
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Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2012, 02:41:57 PM »

Offline Bombastic Jones

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Well it does seem like strange timing considering how long they have been shooting themselves in the foot as you mentioned and considering they will be releasing a product that they have been developing for the past 1.5 years in early 2013
It only seems like strange timing to people who haven't been following RIM for years. I am amazed that they've lasted this long. I can't wait to see the turd that they release next year.

Please reread said poster's replay and understand that he used one business as an example, and a tired line(non sequitur) to point out that the list I provided is meaningless.
No, it in fact undermines your entire point. Including RIM on that list, requires that one be completely ignorant of RIM's circumstances, which calls into question every other entry there.

It would be like I made a list of five-star restaurants, and included McDonald's. People would rightly suspect that I had no idea what I was talking about once they got to the Big Mac.

I'd expect the list to be questioned from those looking to make excuses for a failed economic policy.

I'm sure Energizer, Boeing, and Darden are run by complete morons. Yeah that's it, it's not bad policy, it's the business' fault.

I think the point is, you are throwing out a very short list  of companies who are laying people off since the election, then trying to say those layoffs are caused by 'bad policy'.  So first, there is absolutely no way to demonstrate causation - layoffs happen all the time.  Second, it ignores the thousands of other companies that make up the economy - as I mentioned before, many are hiring.


Mind you, this was just 48 hours after the election that these announcements were made. If these large businesses were feeling good about the economy and had a positive forecasts, they wouldn't be laying people off.


You can point to businesses hiring and I can point you to the unemployment rate and number of food stamp recipients.

No, it was 48 hours after the election that you cut and pasted this list.   Some - like RIM - havent even announced the alleged cuts.  Others - like Husqvarna - are foreign companies, so job cuts in Sweden probably arent indicative of Obama's failed policies.  Regardless, show me causation, show me the macro picture.

And if you can point to the unemployment rate to show that the business atmosphere is getting worse since the election I would be happy to look at it and acknowledge if it causes me to revise my opinion, or makes a good point.

It doesn't have to get worse, staying the same isn't exactly great is it.

The companies on that list(which make up a small percentage of the list) that are foreign generate a lot of sales here in the US. Demand has fallen, now why would that be? Could it be people don't have the money to buy their products because it's going to other places like increased energy and food costs?


The majority of employers like Energizer and Boeing on that list announced the cuts on the 7th or 8th. There were a few that did earlier, but they were the minority. It doesn't really matter because these people are out of jobs. I never said that it was only(but I do believe it played a part because these businesses are not seeing good things ahead)  due to Obama's reelection, but a culmination of his first term. Strange these large companies are not adding jobs during a "recovery".

Fair enough, you didnt say it was only the reelection.  But you did say "Sounds like the business community received a shot of confidence since the election".  So you were implying that his reelection caused those layoffs.  Whatever, I get your larger point - you think Obama's policies over the past four years have created a business climate that is bad for business and as a result businesses are laying people off.  I disagree.  The overall trend in employment over the past four years seems to be on my side.   

Job Growth:


I never said the recovery was great.  But it is a recovery (you dont even need quotation marks!) and I will definitely take it.

Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2012, 02:43:25 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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You can admit that you didn't know about the governmental approvals their new product had.  It seems strange that they would layoff employees after the "Big Government" candidate won.
Government encryption certification is a non-story, "dog bites man". It impresses non-techies who might not understand what that means, but that does not include yours truly. FIPS approval doesn't imply that government agencies will buy it, and as RIM already achieved this with their old products... it would only be a big deal if they failed.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 02:48:55 PM by Interceptor »

Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2012, 02:48:22 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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really becuase the rate was at 7.8 in Oct(remember, it was a sign the economy was improving) and now it's at 7.9.  My math is a bit shaky, but if more jobs are being added, I don't think the rate would increase.
Are you ignoring that the jobs numbers are from a different survey than the unemployment rate, or is it that you don't realize that they are different?

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

BLS doesn't count?
OK, so it seems like the answer is that you don't realize that they are different.

The unemployment rate, and the "jobs numbers", are from two different surveys. That's why it is possible to have months where they appear to be contradicting each other. Jobs come from the payroll survey, unemployment rate comes from the household survey.

Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2012, 02:51:57 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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You can admit that you didn't know about the governmental approvals their new product had.  It seems strange that they would layoff employees after the "Big Government" candidate won.
Government encryption certification is a non-story, "dog bites man". It impresses non-techies who might not understand what that means, but that does not include yours truly. FIPS approval doesn't imply that government agencies will buy it, and as RIM already achieved this with their old products... it would only be a big deal if they failed.

Again, not the actual point the point is that it is surprising given the governmental sales that they will be doing, i don't know why you are responding to arguments that nobody here is making.
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Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2012, 02:54:31 PM »

Offline Cman

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Strange these large companies are not adding jobs during a "recovery".

Why is it strange? Some companies are hiring, some are firing, some are spending money on capital improvements, others are not.  When you net it all out, as we see from the monthly job numbers, companies are doing more hiring than firing. End of story.

really becuase the rate was at 7.8 in Oct(remember, it was a sign the economy was improving) and now it's at 7.9.  My math is a bit shaky, but if more jobs are being added, I don't think the rate would increase.

come on angryguy, you are just being snarky there.
there are ups and downs, and what matters is the broader trend.
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Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2012, 02:55:30 PM »

Offline Cman

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Fair enough, you didnt say it was only the reelection.  But you did say "Sounds like the business community received a shot of confidence since the election".  So you were implying that his reelection caused those layoffs.  Whatever, I get your larger point - you think Obama's policies over the past four years have created a business climate that is bad for business and as a result businesses are laying people off.  I disagree.  The overall trend in employment over the past four years seems to be on my side.   

Job Growth:


I never said the recovery was great.  But it is a recovery (you dont even need quotation marks!) and I will definitely take it.

^^This.

Thanks Obama!
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Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2012, 03:00:18 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Again, not the actual point the point is that it is surprising given the governmental sales that they will be doing, i don't know why you are responding to arguments that nobody here is making.
What government sales? You are conflating FIPS approval with purchases. Pentagon is expected to keep some significant number of BB's because of the security features, but other government agencies, contractors, and such are phasing out their Blackberry servers (ICE switched to iPhones, as an example). Outside government, private enterprise is flat-out running away from RIM at warp speed.

So how is it surprising that RIM makes layoffs when their userbase is evaporating? You can't run a company that size on a mere one million US government employees.

Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2012, 03:02:28 PM »

Offline PierceMVP08

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You can admit that you didn't know about the governmental approvals their new product had.  It seems strange that they would layoff employees after the "Big Government" candidate won.
Government encryption certification is a non-story, "dog bites man". It impresses non-techies who might not understand what that means, but that does not include yours truly. FIPS approval doesn't imply that government agencies will buy it, and as RIM already achieved this with their old products... it would only be a big deal if they failed.

Again, not the actual point the point is that it is surprising given the governmental sales that they will be doing, i don't know why you are responding to arguments that nobody here is making.

Doesn't this go against your very own argument?  If the success of RIM's new product is predicated heavily by government purchases, shouldn't the election of a "big government" president boost their prospects?  After all, the bigger the government, the more they will spend on the products.

Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2012, 03:04:05 PM »

Offline Chris

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Re: Layoff announcements since election
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2012, 03:06:10 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Yup and it's because of Obama's re-election.  Nothing to do with business performance.


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