Author Topic: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?  (Read 3335 times)

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Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2012, 11:47:06 AM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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Definitely Mental Edge as the original poster says. The only guy showing any enthusiasm of any kind is Terry. Getting the crowd into it and pumping up the other guys on the team. Every body else oesnt even look like they want to be on the floor. No one looks like they are having any fun or even trying to put anything into the games.

Uh, not been watching KG much? He's been as energetic as ever!

Kg looked like a corpse last night other then the time Vesey kicked the ball out of bounds

We did not watch the same basketball game.

^This. Seriously, what?! Without KG's "corpse" our post defense dies completely. Just because you don't lift your arms to raise the crowd and spread your arms to opposite sides while running does not mean you're not being energetic.

What about that technical foul he had? If KG was a corpse he wouldn't have initiated that T.

Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2012, 11:51:54 AM »

Offline Chris

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I would say that their biggest problem is that they only have 1 starting quality big man.  They have a bunch of rotation quality guys, which definitely helps, but other than KG, no one else who would ideally be a starter. 

Now, this is certainly nitpicking, because there are few teams that can match the C's depth up front.  But, if they are going to be a championship team, I think this might be something they need to address, either by someone like Sullinger stepping up his game, or by making a big move. 

Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2012, 11:58:08 AM »

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Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2012, 12:04:17 PM »

Offline CapnDunks

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If Lee and Green find some confidence, Wilcox and Darko are in good enough shape to play minutes and Sullinger can learn to defend PandR and make his rotations they'll be fine.

Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2012, 01:00:31 PM »

Offline 2short

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Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2012, 01:19:38 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Small ball & personnel

We have no size (that plays, anyway)
Of our player with size (6'8" or greater--none are really good shot blockers,or intimidaters     (of the ones that play, anyway[Darko]
Because of our "scramble back on D and forget offensive rebounding" concept we haven't ever recently been a good rebounding team, but with Doc's "small ball" we are now absolutely horrid!

at offensive rebounding, sure.  We are dead last, again, at ORB%.

But we are #1 in DRB% right now.

Basically, we are doing a much better job so far this year of getting the rebounds we are actually going after.  In fact, we are grabbing nearly 8 of every 10 rebound chances on the defensive end right now!

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Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2012, 01:47:30 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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quality size next to KG

/thread

Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2012, 01:48:13 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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No quality size outside of KG.
Please check out every roster on the NBA team.  How many have more quality than Bass, Sullinger and Wilcox supporting up their best big? 
Indiana has David West, Ian Mahimi and Hansborough. 
Chicago has Boozer, Gibson and Mohammed. 
San Antonio has Diaw, Splitter, Blair and Bonner. 
Miami has Rashard Lewis, Udonis Haslem and Joel Anthony.  Lakers have Pau Gasol, Jordan Hill and Jamison.  Atlanta
Horford, Pachulia and Ivan Johnson? 
Knicks are rolling out Stoudemire, Thomas, Camby and Sheed.
Philly has Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen and Kwame Brown.
The nets have Kris Humphries, Andray Blatche and a couple of struggling Euros. 
Orlando is bringing Vucevic, Ayon and Nicholson.
Honestly how many 7fts do you see in the bunch?  MOST of these guys are Sullinger's (and Bass') height with less bulk.


How many of these guys have more athleticism than Jared Sullinger?  Bass and Wilcox might be the most athletic of the bunch.  How many of these guys rebound and block shots better than Bass and Sullinger?  Not close to as many as people make out.  Our Bigs are perfectly fine  above average in fact.

On your list, West, Boozer (not so much anymore, but still better than Bass/Sully), Pau and Horford are major impact players that outstrip the impact of any of our non-KG bigs. 

Guys like Splitter, Gibson and Hawes are more useful too. 

Bass and maybe Sully qualify as above average back-up 4s in the right situation, but we don't have an above-average starting 4 or an above-average back-up 5 to keep them in their ideal role.  And further, our one elite big man can't play much more than 30mpg.

Thus our bigs are only really good when they play with KG.
West is slightly better than Bass and earns a lot more.  The other guys are 2nd or 3rd best players on their teams who make 2-3 times as much as Bass.  Splitter Gibson and Hawes are NOT more useful.  Gibson and Splitter have no offense.  Hawes is a poor defender.  If you want to pay two hall of famers, a dominant point guard, deep bench, and still want a Horford or Gasol then you're building an All-Star team not an NBA team.
   That's kind of like Laker fans saying their weakness is they don't have Iggy instead of Peace, or Heat fans saying their weakness is not having Cp3 instead of Chalmers.  No one will be complaining about our size when we play to our full potential.  We have enough to win 18.

I think there may be some optimism bias here.

Our PG is 3-6th in the league or so. Very good, but with flaws, and unfortunately his flaws may not mesh well with the team flaws.

SG is a solid notch above replacement level, but probably low-average starter (until Bradley comes back and ONLY IF Bradley plays this whole season as well as he ended last year).

SF is a future hall of famer, but he's definitely on the downslope. Still all-star level, but not all-nba any team level.

PF is either rookie or Bass. Good Bench PF/Sub average starter.

C is KG. Out of position? Future hall of famer for sure, but noticeably down a couple notches from what earned him the hall. Very good D. Really regressing on offense. Like Pierce, still all-star level, but not all-nba.

Bench: Terry should be a solid mle bench player. Green is overpaid and unless he does something he has never shown in his career, will be overpaid for his career. some big bodies with big flaws.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think this team could (or should have) rework some assets to get a real starting center, and bring sully/bass as bench bigs. We certainly aren't a juggernaut at this point.

All we can go by is how they are playing right now.  I don't disagree with everything you said there, but ...

Rondo is playing out of his mind good right now.  His shooting percentages are all fantastic and he's still dealing out assists by the bucket full.  If he's still behind Chris Paul (who is also starting the year off fantastic) it is not by much.   I don't see any other PG than CP who is really playing better than Rondo right now.

Pierce is averaging 19 points, 3 assists and 7 rebound every 36 minutes right now.  He's getting to the FT line 7.2 times every 36.  Those numbers basically show no real decline since KG & Ray came to town.   If he's on the downslope, it is a very, very shallow grade.   Pierce showed last year that, while he was healthy, he is still one of the _elite_ SFs in the game.  He garnered ECF player of the week the last week of February. ECF player of the MONTH for March and again, ECF player of the week to start April.  In other words, he was basically the ECFs 'Player of the entire 7 middle weeks of the season'.   The problem for Pierce is he started the season with a bruised heel and and ended it with a hurt knee.   That has colored people's perception of him.

Sure, he may get injured again.  And that's an unfortunate symptom of 'age' and 'decline'.  But if he stays healthy, he's still one of the elite SFs in the game.

KG ... I dunno if he's really regressing.   His DRB% right now is an ungodly 32.8%.  That would be a CAREER HIGH if he maintains that.  And this is the career of one of the greatest defensive rebounders of our time.   He's scoring 17.6 points and grabbing 10.7 rebounds every 36 minutes.   These are not the numbers of someone playing 'down a couple notches'.   These are, again, very close to the same numbers he's posted ever since he came here - with the difference being that he scored one extra basket per 36 in that first year here (but he's grabbing 2 more defensive rebounds now than then).

The last couple of games, Green quietly generated 16.8 points per 36 on 50% shooting.   So he's not being totally unproductive.    Not saying I don't want to see a lot more out of Green.  But I think people are underestimating his value.  Doc is not running many plays for him so far - he's got him standing outside stretching the defense and setting picks for Terry.   I'd like to see him taking more shots.

I tend to concur with much of your other points, though I do think that the problem isn't so much that we don't have quality bigs.  I think the problem is that they (Darko, Wilcox) haven't been healthy enough to play.

I think Bass and Sully are both way above average players in the right roles.   But without Darko or Wilcox, we've had to put one of those two guys at the 5 whenever KG has gone to the bench.  And that is where we have gotten into trouble.  That's not a flaw in them - that's simply asking them to be something they are not.

Wilcox looked good in his return to the floor.  Hopefully his conditioning will improve so he can give us more.  And hopefully Darko will soon follow.
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Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2012, 01:52:30 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2012, 02:57:12 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Some stats from the first four games:
Positives:
Celtics are #1 in the league in defensive rebound percentage
Pace has improved from last year an they are the 10th fastest team.

Negatives:
The Celtics are 23rd in defensive efg% and 17th in turn over percentage. This is much worse than we have been accustomed to and is the reason we've lost games.

I think this will improve but the team is having trouble getting used to those amorphous lineups doc has been throwing out there. It will take some time for the defensive rotations to improve since every player except Rondo is pretty much playing multiple positions throughout the course of the game. It will take time but I expect this team to do big things.
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Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2012, 11:21:18 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Everything with this particular era (KG's Era) starts with Defense. everything else follows.

during last nite's game vs Philadelphia, i ran one play back in slow-motion several times just to isolate what everyone was doing during one particular Sixers possession. Philly ran a give & go of sorts between the wing and the post where the wing ran a rounded cut along the baseline from the perimeter, got the pass, took a couple of dribbles and made an up & under layup.
 
why was he able to get to the basket that easily ? simple. because one over-paid-never-should-have-been-traded-for JEFF GREEN was slow to rotate from the weak side baseline, thus leaving the lane and basket unprotected. a high school player would have known enough to get across the lane and stop the ball as a help side defender. it was just one isolated example and Green isn't the only one not executing defensive fundamentals, but it spoke volumes.

Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2012, 11:41:12 AM »

Offline Reggie's Ghost

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Forgive me if some of this is redundant, but I'm just reposting my thoughts on a Front Page article.

I think it’s interesting that Doc acknowledges a major problem is when KG subs out. I’ve been shaking my fist at the TV a lot lately when Doc continues to spell KG with Bass, producing a lineup that has never worked (even in pre-season). You end up with two guys who are undersized even for PFs, who can’t protect the rim and secure rebounds the way a traditional Center/PF duo can.

Makes no sense, just put PP on the 5-5-5 plan with KG, and spell them both with Wilcox/Darko and Green respectively. Bass and Terry and spell RR and Sully afterward. Simple. I don’t get why Doc is wasting his time searching for something that’s right in front of his face.

Oh well, it’s a long season and these things have a way of working themselves out. I do think that this, combined with Green’s disappointing play, have more to do with the C’s woes than team chemistry.

Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2012, 11:44:00 AM »

Offline LB3533

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It's way too early to panic.

Offense: once Paul Pierce starts making his 2's, we'll be all set. Other things will follow suit and fall into place.

Defense: this is going to take time...time for the new guys to get acclimated, time for the older tenured Celtics to trust the new guys.

By X-Mas and the New Year, we'll probably have the best record in the league.

Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2012, 11:44:48 AM »

Offline Edgar

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Doc isnt good with too many players to choose from.
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Re: What do you think is the biggest problem the C's have?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2012, 11:54:26 AM »

Offline celtics2

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Little real sustainable talent. Coaching and Management sucks. DA made 1 spectacular move, KG and Allen. 1 less spectacular move in Posey. Can't live on one's laurels. Boston just doesn't have the Glitz that LA, NY or LA have.

Bird was the last franchise player from Management So long ago it's heard *Bird who*?
I almost give Pierce Bird's status for his performance, durability and loyalty through some ugly years. If he were in War he'd be given the Medal of Honor the likes of Audie Murphy. If he were in LA or NY he'd have > 1 ring.

Boston was lucky they had Red for so many years Coaching and Management. Except for the blip of 1 Championship and a couple good showings after we are mediocre at best. We continually shop the Next to New Shop and can't see the forest for the trees.

 

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