Author Topic: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?  (Read 5073 times)

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Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #90 on: November 14, 2012, 05:56:07 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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The part about most people wanting the health care bill to be to the "right" of where it ended up.

"Joking" was probably a poor choice of words--but I think you'd need to specify what "most people" you're talking about. The USA is already well to the right of "most people" in other first world countries, for example.

Now, if you're talking about how people don't like the individual mandate, I'd agree with that. But I suspect our reasons would be wildly different--and, hazarding a guess, I'd suspect that my reasons would be to the left of yours.

And to the left of "most people," by your rationale. ;D
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Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #91 on: November 14, 2012, 06:05:14 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.
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Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #92 on: November 14, 2012, 06:15:06 PM »

Online BballTim

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.


Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2012, 06:26:15 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.

I'd call 2010 an anti-incumbent expression of rage and discontent directed at the government.

But I don't know very many people to the left or to the right who don't have a problem with Obamacare.
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Can't read the entire thread but cone people.

Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #94 on: November 14, 2012, 06:27:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.
I dont buy this. Mid term elections tend to get much smaller turnouts and are dominated more by extreme partisans than anything else. What I think the 2010 elections were was a referendum of exasperation with the length of the recession and so Republicans got a kick back of more seats. I think by 2010 no one was feeling any effects of Obamacare but positive ones and I think a slight majority of all people would have been in favor of the law. I dont think the 2010 elections had anything to do with Obamacare because if getting rid of Obamacare was so important, Obama would have lost in 2012.
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Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #95 on: November 14, 2012, 06:45:15 PM »

Online BballTim

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.
I dont buy this. Mid term elections tend to get much smaller turnouts and are dominated more by extreme partisans than anything else. What I think the 2010 elections were was a referendum of exasperation with the length of the recession and so Republicans got a kick back of more seats. I think by 2010 no one was feeling any effects of Obamacare but positive ones and I think a slight majority of all people would have been in favor of the law. I dont think the 2010 elections had anything to do with Obamacare because if getting rid of Obamacare was so important, Obama would have lost in 2012.

  So most people blamed the republicans for the economy in 2008 and 2012 but not in 2010? I doubt it.

Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2012, 06:48:23 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Obama and the Democrats failed to embrace Obamacare and ran away from it in 2010.  Obama and the Democrats spoke positively about Obamacare in 2012 and embraced it as a major achievement.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2012, 08:44:52 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.
I dont buy this. Mid term elections tend to get much smaller turnouts and are dominated more by extreme partisans than anything else. What I think the 2010 elections were was a referendum of exasperation with the length of the recession and so Republicans got a kick back of more seats. I think by 2010 no one was feeling any effects of Obamacare but positive ones and I think a slight majority of all people would have been in favor of the law. I dont think the 2010 elections had anything to do with Obamacare because if getting rid of Obamacare was so important, Obama would have lost in 2012.

  So most people blamed the republicans for the economy in 2008 and 2012 but not in 2010? I doubt it.
Just about everybody blamed the economy on the Republicans in 2008. Obama didn't win by a much larger margin because he was a black candidate and perceived as extremely liberal.

In 2010, I think most people were still blaming the economy on the Republicans but Republicans waged a better campaign to take back lost seats because they got the vote out better than the Democrats did. Dems just weren't inspired to go vote for a non-Presidential candidates in the mid-term. It doesn't mean most of America didn't still blame the Republicans, it just means Republicans did a better job of empowering their base to vote against the Democrats and used the economy not recovering fast enough as a weapon.

In 2012, I think people started realizing the economy was turning around, that it was only the Republicans claiming doom and gloom about the economy and so I think more people voted Democrat. They trusted the guy who was in office as things were getting better rather than the guy that was constantly lying, misrepresenting his positions, claiming things weren't getting better when people could see they were and insulting half the population.

I just don't see where either of the last two elections were a referendum on Obamacare. They were about the economy, the ability of parties to bring out the vote and the candidates involved, in the presidential elections as well as the Congressional elections(as evidenced by many 8 Tea Partiers losing after one term).
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Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2012, 09:10:54 PM »

Online BballTim

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.
I dont buy this. Mid term elections tend to get much smaller turnouts and are dominated more by extreme partisans than anything else. What I think the 2010 elections were was a referendum of exasperation with the length of the recession and so Republicans got a kick back of more seats. I think by 2010 no one was feeling any effects of Obamacare but positive ones and I think a slight majority of all people would have been in favor of the law. I dont think the 2010 elections had anything to do with Obamacare because if getting rid of Obamacare was so important, Obama would have lost in 2012.

  So most people blamed the republicans for the economy in 2008 and 2012 but not in 2010? I doubt it.
Just about everybody blamed the economy on the Republicans in 2008. Obama didn't win by a much larger margin because he was a black candidate and perceived as extremely liberal.

In 2010, I think most people were still blaming the economy on the Republicans but Republicans waged a better campaign to take back lost seats because they got the vote out better than the Democrats did. Dems just weren't inspired to go vote for a non-Presidential candidates in the mid-term. It doesn't mean most of America didn't still blame the Republicans, it just means Republicans did a better job of empowering their base to vote against the Democrats and used the economy not recovering fast enough as a weapon.

In 2012, I think people started realizing the economy was turning around, that it was only the Republicans claiming doom and gloom about the economy and so I think more people voted Democrat. They trusted the guy who was in office as things were getting better rather than the guy that was constantly lying, misrepresenting his positions, claiming things weren't getting better when people could see they were and insulting half the population.

I just don't see where either of the last two elections were a referendum on Obamacare. They were about the economy, the ability of parties to bring out the vote and the candidates involved, in the presidential elections as well as the Congressional elections(as evidenced by many 8 Tea Partiers losing after one term).

 The reason the republicans did a better job of getting out the vote was because of outrage over Obamacare. That, and fear of what would happen if the democrats maintained so much power in the government.


Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2012, 09:22:12 PM »

Online BballTim

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.
I dont buy this. Mid term elections tend to get much smaller turnouts and are dominated more by extreme partisans than anything else. What I think the 2010 elections were was a referendum of exasperation with the length of the recession and so Republicans got a kick back of more seats. I think by 2010 no one was feeling any effects of Obamacare but positive ones and I think a slight majority of all people would have been in favor of the law. I dont think the 2010 elections had anything to do with Obamacare because if getting rid of Obamacare was so important, Obama would have lost in 2012.

  So most people blamed the republicans for the economy in 2008 and 2012 but not in 2010? I doubt it.
Just about everybody blamed the economy on the Republicans in 2008. Obama didn't win by a much larger margin because he was a black candidate and perceived as extremely liberal.


  Obama probably picked up at least as many votes because of his race as he lost, and he was perceived as extremely liberal because he is.

Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2012, 10:07:19 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.
I dont buy this. Mid term elections tend to get much smaller turnouts and are dominated more by extreme partisans than anything else. What I think the 2010 elections were was a referendum of exasperation with the length of the recession and so Republicans got a kick back of more seats. I think by 2010 no one was feeling any effects of Obamacare but positive ones and I think a slight majority of all people would have been in favor of the law. I dont think the 2010 elections had anything to do with Obamacare because if getting rid of Obamacare was so important, Obama would have lost in 2012.

  So most people blamed the republicans for the economy in 2008 and 2012 but not in 2010? I doubt it.
Just about everybody blamed the economy on the Republicans in 2008. Obama didn't win by a much larger margin because he was a black candidate and perceived as extremely liberal.


  Obama probably picked up at least as many votes because of his race as he lost, and he was perceived as extremely liberal because he is.
I doubt that very much and still don't buy that Obamacare was such an important factor in the 2010 elections.

Here's an exit poll analysis by ABC. Obamacare is barely mentioned.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/2010-midterms-political-price-economic-pain/story?id=12041739#.UKUEboa-2S1

Important factors:

The economy
Dissatisfaction with Congress
Anger with government as a whole
Highest conservative turnout in almost 30 years
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Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2012, 11:26:36 AM »

Online BballTim

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  Democrats made proposals that were necessary to get enough votes from democrats to pass the bill and nothing more. Slightly to the right of where most democrats want the bill is still well left of where most people wanted it to be.

Right now, polling seems to show that those who are ok with Obamacare plus those who want it to be expanded having been increasing to about half of those who have an opinion.

I'd suggest that thinking the bill is well to the left of where most people want it to be is probably as bad of a misreading of public opinion as thinking that Romney was going to smash Obama.

  Romney was a pretty weak candidate, but the 2010 mid-term elections was something of a referendum on the health care debate. I'm not surprised that it's polling reasonably well at the moment since none of the warts are apparent yet. Sadly, by the time people realize the problems with it it will be too late to remedy them.
I dont buy this. Mid term elections tend to get much smaller turnouts and are dominated more by extreme partisans than anything else. What I think the 2010 elections were was a referendum of exasperation with the length of the recession and so Republicans got a kick back of more seats. I think by 2010 no one was feeling any effects of Obamacare but positive ones and I think a slight majority of all people would have been in favor of the law. I dont think the 2010 elections had anything to do with Obamacare because if getting rid of Obamacare was so important, Obama would have lost in 2012.

  So most people blamed the republicans for the economy in 2008 and 2012 but not in 2010? I doubt it.
Just about everybody blamed the economy on the Republicans in 2008. Obama didn't win by a much larger margin because he was a black candidate and perceived as extremely liberal.


  Obama probably picked up at least as many votes because of his race as he lost, and he was perceived as extremely liberal because he is.
I doubt that very much and still don't buy that Obamacare was such an important factor in the 2010 elections.

Here's an exit poll analysis by ABC. Obamacare is barely mentioned.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/2010-midterms-political-price-economic-pain/story?id=12041739#.UKUEboa-2S1

Important factors:

The economy
Dissatisfaction with Congress
Anger with government as a whole
Highest conservative turnout in almost 30 years

  The health care issue was the driving force behind the anger and the high conservative turnout. Here's a couple of other exit polls, both from liberal sources:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/02/exit-polls-2010_n_777869.html

  "Asked about Obama's policies overall, about half of voters predicted he would hurt the country.

This view was especially strong among voters who support the tea party — about four out of 10 of those who came to the polls. They overwhelmingly voted Republican. Almost all of them want Congress to repeal the new health care law. They also were focused on reducing the budget deficit, followed by cutting taxes."

  Or:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/election-results-2010/exit-poll/

 Which has 48% of the voters wanting the health care law repealed.

Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2012, 12:37:01 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Which means 52% of people didn't want it repealed. How can an issue be a referendum of of an election when most of the people don't want it repealed? Obamacare was a way to instigate fury in the Republican base and get them to the polls. It was one with of many issues used for that purpose by the RNC. But it wasn't THE issue that would make sure it the referendum on that election. 

I just don't see that because it if it was such a huge deciding issue it would have been even more important now, in this election, when the majority of the effects of the act are about to take place, and it wasn't. Republicans lost the White House, lost Congressional seats and people said the over riding decisive factor was the economy.
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Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #103 on: November 15, 2012, 01:12:40 PM »

Online BballTim

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Which means 52% of people didn't want it repealed. How can an issue be a referendum of of an election when most of the people don't want it repealed? Obamacare was a way to instigate fury in the Republican base and get them to the polls. It was one with of many issues used for that purpose by the RNC. But it wasn't THE issue that would make sure it the referendum on that election. 

I just don't see that because it if it was such a huge deciding issue it would have been even more important now, in this election, when the majority of the effects of the act are about to take place, and it wasn't. Republicans lost the White House, lost Congressional seats and people said the over riding decisive factor was the economy.

  I can explain why it's less of an issue now. Two years ago people heard all of the drawbacks of the plan and opposed it. We're now in the phase where it hasn't been implemented long enough (or fully enough) for the problems to manifest themselves, hence it's less unpopular.

Re: Will filibuster reform be the Senate's first big test?
« Reply #104 on: November 15, 2012, 01:28:24 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Bob Cousy
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Which means 52% of people didn't want it repealed. How can an issue be a referendum of of an election when most of the people don't want it repealed? Obamacare was a way to instigate fury in the Republican base and get them to the polls. It was one with of many issues used for that purpose by the RNC. But it wasn't THE issue that would make sure it the referendum on that election. 

I just don't see that because it if it was such a huge deciding issue it would have been even more important now, in this election, when the majority of the effects of the act are about to take place, and it wasn't. Republicans lost the White House, lost Congressional seats and people said the over riding decisive factor was the economy.

  I can explain why it's less of an issue now. Two years ago people heard all of the drawbacks of the plan and opposed it. We're now in the phase where it hasn't been implemented long enough (or fully enough) for the problems to manifest themselves, hence it's less unpopular.
Again, I am not buying  it. We will have to agree to disagree.
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