Author Topic: When will our offensive flow come back?  (Read 1725 times)

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Offline Galeto

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 03:10:24 PM »
Have we ever had one?  ;D

Seriously, though, this team is predicated on defense, and most of its success the last 5 seasons has been because, despite often scoring only about 90 points a game, the defense has usually surrendered less than that.

The number of games in the last 5 years in which this team has had a real, honest-to-goodness offensive flow for anything close to 48 minutes can probably be counted on two hands. I'd love to see a big improvement on that.

Well, they were 10th in offensive efficiency in 2008 and 6th in 2009.  Since then they've eroded every year: 15th, 18th, 27th and 25th this season thus far. 

Lots of things bother me about their offense.  They never run after makes.  Instead, Rondo walks the ball up slower than anybody in the league.  When Bradley pressed the opposition last season, it was a huge benefit for their defense to get the opponent starting their sets with only 16 or less seconds on the shot clock.  The Celtics willingly do this to themselves after every make. It's infuriating.

Back to my biggest gripe: Rondo having too much of the ball.  Their offensive efficiency has gotten worse ever year that Doc made the switch and placed the ball in Rondo's hands over 80 percent of the time.  Of course Rondo should have the ball but it's hard to get into a rhythm when you go multiple possessions all the time without touches.  How often does Lee go completely unused?  They got Terry handling the ball more last game but they previously had him running laps like Ray did to get his shots.  That hadn't been Terry's game at all but to fit with Rondo, he had to do something completely different from what he's been used to for the last like 14 seasons.  It's crazy.  Unless an one-man offensive show is wildly effective like with Nash, just go conventional.

Another thing: the ball movement is terrible.  They have so many possessions where only one or two guys touch the ball.  It's possession after possession of three guys or more just standing around, not budging from their spots at all.  I watch the Knicks and Heat and the ball just zips around.  It's not just one guy being allowed to do whatever he wants.

Offline snively

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2012, 03:31:00 PM »
Have we ever had one?  ;D

Seriously, though, this team is predicated on defense, and most of its success the last 5 seasons has been because, despite often scoring only about 90 points a game, the defense has usually surrendered less than that.

The number of games in the last 5 years in which this team has had a real, honest-to-goodness offensive flow for anything close to 48 minutes can probably be counted on two hands. I'd love to see a big improvement on that.

Well, they were 10th in offensive efficiency in 2008 and 6th in 2009.  Since then they've eroded every year: 15th, 18th, 27th and 25th this season thus far. 

Lots of things bother me about their offense.  They never run after makes.  Instead, Rondo walks the ball up slower than anybody in the league.  When Bradley pressed the opposition last season, it was a huge benefit for their defense to get the opponent starting their sets with only 16 or less seconds on the shot clock.  The Celtics willingly do this to themselves after every make. It's infuriating.

Back to my biggest gripe: Rondo having too much of the ball.  Their offensive efficiency has gotten worse ever year that Doc made the switch and placed the ball in Rondo's hands over 80 percent of the time.  Of course Rondo should have the ball but it's hard to get into a rhythm when you go multiple possessions all the time without touches.  How often does Lee go completely unused?  They got Terry handling the ball more last game but they previously had him running laps like Ray did to get his shots.  That hadn't been Terry's game at all but to fit with Rondo, he had to do something completely different from what he's been used to for the last like 14 seasons.  It's crazy.  Unless an one-man offensive show is wildly effective like with Nash, just go conventional.

Another thing: the ball movement is terrible.  They have so many possessions where only one or two guys touch the ball.  It's possession after possession of three guys or more just standing around, not budging from their spots at all.  I watch the Knicks and Heat and the ball just zips around.  It's not just one guy being allowed to do whatever he wants.

The offensive efficiency didn't go down because Rondo held the ball at the top of the key more.  The offensive efficiency tanked because our offensive rebounding went from average (even above average in 2009) to worst-in-league-history.  The extreme decline in offensive bench play didn't help either (haven't had a bench player turn in an above-average offensive campaign since House & Powe teamed up in 2009).

That said, I agree that having Lee run laps like Ray is not the best use of his game.  I'd much rather see Lee stick to the corners like AB did and then cut off the ball.  The motion isn't getting him open and he's not really worth springing for mid-range Js anyways.  He's a great corner 3 shooter and he's not even getting to his spot consistently.

In general, I'm not a fan of the Rondo pocket passer sets.  He's Brett Favre but he spends too much time imitating Drew Bledsoe.  I'd much rather run a steady diet of high pick and rolls with Rondo with attacking the rim as the goal as opposed to using him as a stand still passer - that's what you do if you have Jose Calderon.  When Pierce has a good match-up run a quick play to get him at the elbow and then send Rondo to the corner 3 or the weakside baseline.
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Offline SHAQATTACK

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2012, 03:38:10 PM »
I have been wondering the same question. 

And many good opinions too. 

It starts with Doc.   , he controls the plays , he calls the players numbers and manages the game day plan.

Rondo is walking the ball up court "AGAIN".  That is a "BAD" sign.. ..he may tired...playing too many minutes...poor team movement, trust of teamates minutes...whatever his reason ...when Rondo walks the ball up , dribble forever the seconds away the result is usually a poor shot and no points.

SOmething just  isn't right ,  either its Rondo, or Doc poor offensive planning, other is it players SHOWING POOR movement without the ball , disinterest....not sure the cause.  Has to end, I'm sure Danny see s it if I can.

But one thing for sure , when Rondo walks the ball , the team starts to fall apart .   I cringe when I see this , because HERE COMES A TURN OVER (huge problems)  or a last second BRICK shot. ::)

The ball passing is VERY VERY VERY poor for a Celtics team.

The team is a hi performance V8 engine running on 4 cylinders and ruff at that.

Its up to Doc.  ???  He needs to start with chewing there tails for turning the ball over some many times. They are NBA pros not HIGH SCHOOL players

Doc needs to do some of that COACHING stuff really soon.

Offline Yogi

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2012, 04:11:30 PM »
1) We never had any offensive flow to get back.  We're slowly but surely getting all the new guys integrated.  Pierce, KG Rondo and Terry our top 4 offensive players are getting more comfortable.  Green, our 5th  option is getting more comfortable offensively as well.  Lee is another struggling piece although he would take a hefty drop in minutes once Bradley returns. 
2) I don't know how many people realize our point guard is currently on one of the greatest regular season assist streak in the history of the NBA.  He's also shooting the ball extremely well 57!/43!/58%. 
3) Our pace is maybe the fastest it has been in the KG era. 
4) Turnovers are hurting us, but there has been steady improvement.  The better the team executes the more we can cut back on these turnovers. 

Our offense will be fine in the long run.  It will continue to get better and better over time. 
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Offline mr. dee

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2012, 05:59:53 AM »
Here is my 2 cents:

1. JET must play through his strength. He should not play like Ray Allen. He should play like Jason Terry.

2. Give Jeff Green major minutes in his natural position. I'm getting sick of him playing at 4. We saw him excel at that position during pre-season. We signed him to give Paul Pierce a rest. Doc must realize that.

3. When will Doc free the bigs? I know they aren't some good scorers but Darko is a good passer and maybe he can set some screens like Perk do.

4. Never play Bass and Sully together. They get abused by opposing bigs.

Offline bfrombleacher

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2012, 06:36:40 AM »
In the preseason the team played well. Then we went away from everything we did well then.

I felt like the team played with a lot more freedom. Doc wasn't so tight on his lineups, plays and all that and let the players play. Darko had minutes and played very well.

Then we went back to the old system. When in doubt, go to Rondo, Pierce, Garnett. Wilcox didn't get time until it all went awry.

I reckon Darko probably did all the right things and is still being benched because of small ball.

Offline hwangjini_1

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 09:46:08 AM »
When the team stop treating Terry and Lee like Ray and come up with some sets that work towards their strengths.

This.

And also when we stop the Rondo dribble for 14 seconds while trying to get it into a posted up KG while the other three stand around. Cant get it to him and then force something out of desperation.

Run, move the ball, and go to the basket. Then things will start happening. When we stand around the perimeter and take jump shots all day, nothings going to happen for us.

lots of good points in this thread.

above, i agree about the celtics being willing to settle for jump shots. too often the teams settles for jump shots instead of passing the ball around and going to the basket. and this usually means one shot and then the other team rebounds.

during these stretches the celtics have virtually no game under the basket and no second chances. this does not happen with every possession, but often enough that it costs the team a handful of baskets each game, all of which are important.

as was the case before, the lack of a consistent rebounder hurts as well.

at times this season the celtics just looked to me as if they were not committed to hard work, almost lazy. i see similar attitudes pop up too often on defense as well as well as a number of mental mistakes on defensive switches.

basically, the celtics are playing poor basketball and not executing as they should. the result is a mediocre record for the team.
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Offline crownsy

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2012, 09:49:23 AM »
Have we ever had one?  ;D

Seriously, though, this team is predicated on defense, and most of its success the last 5 seasons has been because, despite often scoring only about 90 points a game, the defense has usually surrendered less than that.

The number of games in the last 5 years in which this team has had a real, honest-to-goodness offensive flow for anything close to 48 minutes can probably be counted on two hands. I'd love to see a big improvement on that.

Well, they were 10th in offensive efficiency in 2008 and 6th in 2009.  Since then they've eroded every year: 15th, 18th, 27th and 25th this season thus far. 

Lots of things bother me about their offense.  They never run after makes.  Instead, Rondo walks the ball up slower than anybody in the league.  When Bradley pressed the opposition last season, it was a huge benefit for their defense to get the opponent starting their sets with only 16 or less seconds on the shot clock.  The Celtics willingly do this to themselves after every make. It's infuriating.

Back to my biggest gripe: Rondo having too much of the ball.  Their offensive efficiency has gotten worse ever year that Doc made the switch and placed the ball in Rondo's hands over 80 percent of the time.  Of course Rondo should have the ball but it's hard to get into a rhythm when you go multiple possessions all the time without touches.  How often does Lee go completely unused?  They got Terry handling the ball more last game but they previously had him running laps like Ray did to get his shots.  That hadn't been Terry's game at all but to fit with Rondo, he had to do something completely different from what he's been used to for the last like 14 seasons.  It's crazy.  Unless an one-man offensive show is wildly effective like with Nash, just go conventional.

Another thing: the ball movement is terrible.  They have so many possessions where only one or two guys touch the ball.  It's possession after possession of three guys or more just standing around, not budging from their spots at all.  I watch the Knicks and Heat and the ball just zips around.  It's not just one guy being allowed to do whatever he wants.

With you here, that ticks me off too. I notice it mostly happens when KG/ P are on the floor, not sure if it's a product of having to wait till they get up the floor.

But either way, it's infuriating that after most makes, they bleed 10 seconds off the play clock by the time they get to their half court set.
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Offline crownsy

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 09:51:38 AM »
Here is my 2 cents:

1. JET must play through his strength. He should not play like Ray Allen. He should play like Jason Terry.

2. Give Jeff Green major minutes in his natural position. I'm getting sick of him playing at 4. We saw him excel at that position during pre-season. We signed him to give Paul Pierce a rest. Doc must realize that.

3. When will Doc free the bigs? I know they aren't some good scorers but Darko is a good passer and maybe he can set some screens like Perk do.

4. Never play Bass and Sully together. They get abused by opposing bigs.

agree with 1 and 4 wholeheartedly, Love both sully and bass, but you need an enforcer in with each.

And considering how well wilcox has played when he's in, I don't see why they can't rotate, heck even try darko in limited minutes.
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Offline SHAQATTACK

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2012, 11:14:42 AM »
Here is my 2 cents:

1. JET must play through his strength. He should not play like Ray Allen. He should play like Jason Terry.

2. Give Jeff Green major minutes in his natural position. I'm getting sick of him playing at 4. We saw him excel at that position during pre-season. We signed him to give Paul Pierce a rest. Doc must realize that.

3. When will Doc free the bigs? I know they aren't some good scorers but Darko is a good passer and maybe he can set some screens like Perk do.

4. Never play Bass and Sully together. They get abused by opposing bigs.

ALL THIS .   

What is "BLANK" is Doc thinking.  Does he EVER rewatch these games ??????????????????????????????????

Lack of BIGS,  mobile tall guy,  on the court ,in the paint is KILLING the Celtics.  Teams are chopping us up like hamburger when KG sits. It's pathetic.


Offline cman88

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Re: When will our offensive flow come back?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 11:58:43 AM »
honestly, I think when the defense comes the offense will come together as well...this team is built to defend, create turnovers and then get guys like Green/Rondo/wilcox/Barbosa on the fast-break for easy buckets...instead our defense is horrible leading us to rely more on half court sets which play more to kg/Pierce/Bass

I think a problem is shot distribution as well...people may want to harp on green, but hes not getting enough plays called for him....Terry has only been getting it going these past few games because he's been getting his shots...if you only get your number called 4-5times offensively its going to be hard to put up numbers