Author Topic: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.  (Read 5313 times)

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Offline CelticG1

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2012, 08:40:22 AM »
Most of today's great PGs are between the ages of 20 and 30. That means back 12- 15 years ago they were 8-15 years old. Most great athletes chose which sport they will proceed forward in in high school, when they are 14-16 years old. A lot of these guys could have played other sports. Rondo was an unbelievable QB talent.

But as kids they were influenced by Iverson and MJ and decided to become basketball players rather than football or baseball players. Thats my theory why there is so many great PGs today. Because the best of the best athletes loved MJ and AI and wanted to be like them.

I think it has a lot more to do with rule changes than anything else. PG's handle the ball for the majority on offense, the game is so geared to offense right now that you legitimately can't play very hard defense without getting in foul trouble.

I think it has a lot more yo do with that than these athletes just "deciding" to play in the NBA rather than the NFL.

Offline Boris Badenov

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2012, 11:23:50 AM »
Rondo is a better player in the clutch, in my mind, particularly in terms of creating his own offense. In the last two years he has become a decent outside shooter capable of taking and making a shot from anywhere when it really matters.

I'd also rank Rondo as better in terms of generally stepping up his game in the playoffs.  Rondo already has 10 playoff triple-doubles, and Kidd has 11, and Kidd has been playing since roughly 1957.

Offline LarBrd33

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2012, 01:19:36 PM »


As mentioned, Rondo is a top 5 point guard right now with the likes of Chris Paul, Deron, Rose, Parker, Westbrook... and I'd say Kyrie Irving is probably already there as well.  Could see additional players crack the discussion like Steph Curry (if healthy), Ricky Rubio... heck... even John Wall (still only 22) and Brandon Jennings (still only 23) can enter this discussion.  We're in the middle of a point guard boom.  That doesn't take anything away from Rondo's huge stats in the 2009 and 2012 playoffs, but if we're looking at his regular season output... you're going to get rational pushback if you declare him anything more than a "Top 5 Point Guard".  Last year his efficiency rating was 5th behind Paul, Westbrook, Rose and Deron.  The year prior he was 7th behind Rose, Paul, Deron, Westbrook, Nash and Curry.    For what it's worth... so far this year (after 4 games) he is actually 1st ahead of Kyle Lowrie, Chris Paul and Brandon Jennings... but he's doing so by averaging 10 more minutes per game (42.3... highest in the entire league) and it's clearly way too early to put too much thought into those early stats.

Why wouldn't you consider playoff stats when you are trying to determine who the best players are? 

According to this;
 
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/12/2/eff/1-1

Rondo was behind only Chris Paul in efficiency among point guards last year when taking into account both regular season and playoff numbers.

If I were going to rate production in the regular season vs. production in the playoffs, I'd rank performing at a high level in the playoffs higher.  It seems to me that the stakes are a little higher when the elimination games come around.  Luckily, our guy has proven to excel when the high stakes games are played.
His numbers in the 2009 and 2012 playoffs were fantastic.  Obviously his team went deeper in the playoffs than any point guard other than Westbrook.  Rose and Williams didn't even play.  Chris Paul was injured... etc.   There's a lot of reasons why you can't read too much into playoff performance... for instance... playing 20 game against Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague and Mario Chalmers definitely factors into into his performances.  The fact he averaged 43 minutes during those games also factors into his huge stats.  You have to take it with a grain of salt.  Comparing a full season of regular season games against more-or-less the same competition is a lot different than comparing Rondo's performance against lowly Atlanta/Philly with Chris Paul's injured performances against Memphis/San Antonio or Westbrook's performances against Dallas, Lakers and Spurs.  It's tough to make comparisons there.  It's kind of like comparing a regular-season game where the Suns blew out the Bobcats with a regular-season game where the Spurs beat the Thunder by 2... and saying, "Well clearly the Suns are better than the Spurs".  It doesn't work that way.     

Online Celtics18

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2012, 01:35:17 PM »


As mentioned, Rondo is a top 5 point guard right now with the likes of Chris Paul, Deron, Rose, Parker, Westbrook... and I'd say Kyrie Irving is probably already there as well.  Could see additional players crack the discussion like Steph Curry (if healthy), Ricky Rubio... heck... even John Wall (still only 22) and Brandon Jennings (still only 23) can enter this discussion.  We're in the middle of a point guard boom.  That doesn't take anything away from Rondo's huge stats in the 2009 and 2012 playoffs, but if we're looking at his regular season output... you're going to get rational pushback if you declare him anything more than a "Top 5 Point Guard".  Last year his efficiency rating was 5th behind Paul, Westbrook, Rose and Deron.  The year prior he was 7th behind Rose, Paul, Deron, Westbrook, Nash and Curry.    For what it's worth... so far this year (after 4 games) he is actually 1st ahead of Kyle Lowrie, Chris Paul and Brandon Jennings... but he's doing so by averaging 10 more minutes per game (42.3... highest in the entire league) and it's clearly way too early to put too much thought into those early stats.

Why wouldn't you consider playoff stats when you are trying to determine who the best players are? 

According to this;
 
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/12/2/eff/1-1

Rondo was behind only Chris Paul in efficiency among point guards last year when taking into account both regular season and playoff numbers.

If I were going to rate production in the regular season vs. production in the playoffs, I'd rank performing at a high level in the playoffs higher.  It seems to me that the stakes are a little higher when the elimination games come around.  Luckily, our guy has proven to excel when the high stakes games are played.
His numbers in the 2009 and 2012 playoffs were fantastic.  Obviously his team went deeper in the playoffs than any point guard other than Westbrook.  Rose and Williams didn't even play.  Chris Paul was injured... etc.   There's a lot of reasons why you can't read too much into playoff performance... for instance... playing 20 game against Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague and Mario Chalmers definitely factors into into his performances.  The fact he averaged 43 minutes during those games also factors into his huge stats.  You have to take it with a grain of salt.  Comparing a full season of regular season games against more-or-less the same competition is a lot different than comparing Rondo's performance against lowly Atlanta/Philly with Chris Paul's injured performances against Memphis/San Antonio or Westbrook's performances against Dallas, Lakers and Spurs.  It's tough to make comparisons there.  It's kind of like comparing a regular-season game where the Suns blew out the Bobcats with a regular-season game where the Spurs beat the Thunder by 2... and saying, "Well clearly the Suns are better than the Spurs".  It doesn't work that way.   

It's not like that at all.  I posted the numbers for efficiency ratings among point guards in playoffs and regular season combined.  My point is not to solely base these players' rankings on how they perform in the playoffs.  Rather, it is to not leave playoff performance completely out of the equation as you have done. 

Rondo was the best point guard in the league last year based solely on playoff performance.  I'm not claiming that he was the best point guard in the league overall.  I still give that title to Chris Paul.  But, the full body of work shows that he was the second best point guard.

Also, lowly Atlanta/Philly (and Miami) had a much better combined defensive rating than did the Spurs or the Grizzlies. 
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Offline BballTim

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2012, 03:44:03 PM »
There's a lot of reasons why you can't read too much into playoff performance... for instance... playing 20 game against Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague and Mario Chalmers definitely factors into into his performances.  The fact he averaged 43 minutes during those games also factors into his huge stats.  You have to take it with a grain of salt.  Comparing a full season of regular season games against more-or-less the same competition is a lot different than comparing Rondo's performance against lowly Atlanta/Philly with Chris Paul's injured performances against Memphis/San Antonio or Westbrook's performances against Dallas, Lakers and Spurs.  It's tough to make comparisons there.

  While you're right that you need to take things with a grain of salt, the premise of your post is completely off base. You throw out names like Holiday, Teague and Chalmers and act like Rondo had a cakewalk. He faced 3 of the top 6 defenses in the league in the playoffs. Every team that you listed (Dallas, Memphis, LA, SA) that Paul or Westbrook faced was a worse defensive team than any team Rondo faced. If you check opponent's production on 82games you'll see that the teams Rondo faced combined to hold opposing point guards to a much lower average production than the groups that Paul or Westbrook faced. The competition that Rondo faced made his performance more impressive, not less.

Offline vjcsmoke

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2012, 04:20:20 PM »
And how many top PGs are known for their monster 'post game'?  CP3? Isaiah Thomas? Bob Cousy?

My response is so what.  It's not Rondo's job to post up.  It's his job to run the team, find the open man, and 'create' scoring opportunities whenever possible whether it be with his feet or with the 'dime'.

IMO Rondo looks like a top 3 PG in the NBA right now.  Whether or not he becomes a legit MVP candidate.  Who knows.  But he has top notch talent, athleticism, and vision.  He really needs to develop his jumper.  I'd like it if he could hit free throws better.  But his strengths are his strengths.  Add to that a pesky defense and a top notch ability to cause turnovers and disrupt passing lanes and you have one of the best overall packages in the NBA. 

Would he be even better if he were a couple of inches taller?  Well ANY player would be better with a couple of inches more height in the NBA.

Maybe.



Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down.

Offline wdleehi

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2012, 07:07:03 PM »
And how many top PGs are known for their monster 'post game'?  CP3? Isaiah Thomas? Bob Cousy?

My response is so what.  It's not Rondo's job to post up.  It's his job to run the team, find the open man, and 'create' scoring opportunities whenever possible whether it be with his feet or with the 'dime'.

IMO Rondo looks like a top 3 PG in the NBA right now.  Whether or not he becomes a legit MVP candidate.  Who knows.  But he has top notch talent, athleticism, and vision.  He really needs to develop his jumper.  I'd like it if he could hit free throws better.  But his strengths are his strengths.  Add to that a pesky defense and a top notch ability to cause turnovers and disrupt passing lanes and you have one of the best overall packages in the NBA. 

Would he be even better if he were a couple of inches taller?  Well ANY player would be better with a couple of inches more height in the NBA.

Maybe.



Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down.


Kidd and Rondo have some different strengths. 


When comparing them and what Rondo could do to be better, there is nothing wrong pointing out that these skills Kidd had Rondo does not have the gifts to do, but these other skills Kidd developed, if Rondo could as well, he would be better. 


And besides Kidd, Magic and Mark Jackson would run offenses while posting up smaller PGs. 


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Offline celtics2

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2012, 03:06:07 AM »
so far this very early season he's getting beat by opposition point guards.

Offline ummidkme

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2012, 03:16:36 AM »
so far this very early season he's getting beat by opposition point guards.

I wouldn't say beat. I think point guards are looking better against the Celtics team as a whole. pick and roll and defensive lapses being key. that being said rondo isn't going 100 during defense because he knows he can't sit down the way the team is playing right now. he is averaging over 40 minutes a game, there is no way he is going 100 on the defensive or offensive end.

Offline OmarSekou

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2012, 01:47:51 PM »


I say yes, if he stays healthy. Scal summed it up well. Rondo's probably already just as good a player in terms of on the court ability and production, but he's not the leader that Kidd was/is.

Offline cman88

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2012, 03:22:54 PM »
i actually think Rondo looks alot better/more confident with his shot this year...hes not afraid to take it. and he seems(at least to my eyes) to be making them at an effective rate.

he's even not really hesitating to take 3 point shots when he has them and so far has hit them at a solid clip

 

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