Author Topic: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.  (Read 5582 times)

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2012, 08:29:13 PM »

Online nickagneta

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And why are there more elite PGs now? 

because the best all around athletes in the world who are between 5'7" and 6'4" are deciding to play basketball and play PG rather than play any other position in any other sport.

That's it.
That seems highly unlikely.  Basketball wasn't exactly a niche sport airing on VS back in 1999.  Athletes between 5'7 and 6'4 had the very same choices back in the halycon days of 1999.

Why would decisions shift so dramatically where we have 2 elite point guards in 1999 and three times as many (maybe more) in 2012?
And yet the NBA was on a massive turn down in popularity, football running backs and WRs still ruled, and MLB was at the end of a huge upswing.

About the time the under 30 PGs of today were deciding what sport they most wanted to play they were watching the end of Michael Jordan and little guy Allen Iverson light up the NBA on a nightly basis. They were the heroes of that generation for the best athletes of that time. And so we have today's multi-faceted PGs.
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2012, 08:34:17 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

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And why are there more elite PGs now? 

because the best all around athletes in the world who are between 5'7" and 6'4" are deciding to play basketball and play PG rather than play any other position in any other sport.

That's it.
That seems highly unlikely.  Basketball wasn't exactly a niche sport airing on VS back in 1999.  Athletes between 5'7 and 6'4 had the very same choices back in the halycon days of 1999.

Why would decisions shift so dramatically where we have 2 elite point guards in 1999 and three times as many (maybe more) in 2012?
And yet the NBA was on a massive turn down in popularity, football running backs and WRs still ruled, and MLB was at the end of a huge upswing.

About the time the under 30 PGs of today were deciding what sport they most wanted to play they were watching the end of Michael Jordan and little guy Allen Iverson light up the NBA on a nightly basis. They were the heroes of that generation for the best athletes of that time. And so we have today's multi-faceted PGs.

When was the NBA in a massive downturn in popularity?  What timeframe are we talking about here?  How was Jordan's run (which ended in 98) a downturn in popularity?

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2012, 08:41:18 PM »

Online nickagneta

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And why are there more elite PGs now? 

because the best all around athletes in the world who are between 5'7" and 6'4" are deciding to play basketball and play PG rather than play any other position in any other sport.

That's it.
That seems highly unlikely.  Basketball wasn't exactly a niche sport airing on VS back in 1999.  Athletes between 5'7 and 6'4 had the very same choices back in the halycon days of 1999.

Why would decisions shift so dramatically where we have 2 elite point guards in 1999 and three times as many (maybe more) in 2012?
And yet the NBA was on a massive turn down in popularity, football running backs and WRs still ruled, and MLB was at the end of a huge upswing.

About the time the under 30 PGs of today were deciding what sport they most wanted to play they were watching the end of Michael Jordan and little guy Allen Iverson light up the NBA on a nightly basis. They were the heroes of that generation for the best athletes of that time. And so we have today's multi-faceted PGs.

When was the NBA in a massive downturn in popularity?  What timeframe are we talking about here?  How was Jordan's run (which ended in 98) a downturn in popularity?
Check the merchandising and television ratings of the very late 90's and early 2000's. The NBA was in the beginning of a massive loss of popularity. It didn't start to rebound until 2007-08 with the revival of the Celtics-Lakers rivalry. Why do you think owners were claiming massive losses for a decade before last years's lockout?
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2012, 08:53:08 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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As mentioned, Rondo is a top 5 point guard right now with the likes of Chris Paul, Deron, Rose, Parker, Westbrook... and I'd say Kyrie Irving is probably already there as well.  Could see additional players crack the discussion like Steph Curry (if healthy), Ricky Rubio... heck... even John Wall (still only 22) and Brandon Jennings (still only 23) can enter this discussion.  We're in the middle of a point guard boom.  That doesn't take anything away from Rondo's huge stats in the 2009 and 2012 playoffs, but if we're looking at his regular season output... you're going to get rational pushback if you declare him anything more than a "Top 5 Point Guard".  Last year his efficiency rating was 5th behind Paul, Westbrook, Rose and Deron.  The year prior he was 7th behind Rose, Paul, Deron, Westbrook, Nash and Curry.    For what it's worth... so far this year (after 4 games) he is actually 1st ahead of Kyle Lowrie, Chris Paul and Brandon Jennings... but he's doing so by averaging 10 more minutes per game (42.3... highest in the entire league) and it's clearly way too early to put too much thought into those early stats.

Why wouldn't you consider playoff stats when you are trying to determine who the best players are? 

According to this;
 
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/12/2/eff/1-1

Rondo was behind only Chris Paul in efficiency among point guards last year when taking into account both regular season and playoff numbers.

If I were going to rate production in the regular season vs. production in the playoffs, I'd rank performing at a high level in the playoffs higher.  It seems to me that the stakes are a little higher when the elimination games come around.  Luckily, our guy has proven to excel when the high stakes games are played.   

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2012, 08:57:43 PM »

Online wdleehi

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And why are there more elite PGs now? 

Because the best all around athletes in the world who are between 5'7" and 6'4" are deciding to play basketball and play PG rather than play any other position in any other sport.

That's it.


Because AI was a SG

Marbury is Marbury.


Davis and Nash were a couple seasons away.



Strickland and Brandon were two very good PGs.



Kidd was one of the top players in the game then.  Along with Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Webber, AI, Malone, Alonzo, Grant Hill, Payton, KG



And for those who said Hardaway wasn't that good at that point, all nba 2nd team in the 98-99 season.


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2012, 10:44:14 PM »

Online crimson_stallion

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Chris Paul is also arguably as good as Kidd was.

It's not arguable. Paul is a better PG than Kidd was hands down and he's had it since day one. I'm super in the tank for Rondo, my second favorite player after KG but Paul is the best PG in the NBA and has been for at least the past 5 years.

This...

Chris Paul is far and away the best PG in the league right now - it's not even close.  There is no argument. 

Look at Chris Paul's game and find me a single key weakness?

Leadership
Paul has been an elite leader (and one of the best clutch shooters/scorers) in the NBA throughout his career.  He ranks among the elite in terms of points scored and shooting percentages in the clutch.  His ability to turn the Clippers into a quality playoff team last season (as opposed to a pretty garbage team the year before) says all you need to know about his ability to impact a team.

Scoring 
He's averaged 15+ PPG ever since he entered the league, while consistently being among league leaders in FG%, 3PT% and FT%.

Rebounding
While Paul has never been an Elite rebounder on Kidd's level, his career average of 4.5 RPG is exceptional for a PG, and even more impressive when you consider that he is barely 6 feet tall.

Passing and ball handling
He has consistently been top 3-4 in the NBA in assists since he entered the league, and he's an exceptional ball handler - his Assist:TO ratio is off the charts.

Defense
Paul has been considered an 'All-Defense' calibre player pretty much since he entered the league, and he's been among league leaders in steals every year.


Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2012, 11:14:30 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Chris Paul is also arguably as good as Kidd was.

It's not arguable. Paul is a better PG than Kidd was hands down and he's had it since day one. I'm super in the tank for Rondo, my second favorite player after KG but Paul is the best PG in the NBA and has been for at least the past 5 years.

This...

Chris Paul is far and away the best PG in the league right now - it's not even close.  There is no argument. 

Look at Chris Paul's game and find me a single key weakness?

Leadership
Paul has been an elite leader (and one of the best clutch shooters/scorers) in the NBA throughout his career.  He ranks among the elite in terms of points scored and shooting percentages in the clutch.  His ability to turn the Clippers into a quality playoff team last season (as opposed to a pretty garbage team the year before) says all you need to know about his ability to impact a team.

Scoring 
He's averaged 15+ PPG ever since he entered the league, while consistently being among league leaders in FG%, 3PT% and FT%.

Rebounding
While Paul has never been an Elite rebounder on Kidd's level, his career average of 4.5 RPG is exceptional for a PG, and even more impressive when you consider that he is barely 6 feet tall.

Passing and ball handling
He has consistently been top 3-4 in the NBA in assists since he entered the league, and he's an exceptional ball handler - his Assist:TO ratio is off the charts.

Defense
Paul has been considered an 'All-Defense' calibre player pretty much since he entered the league, and he's been among league leaders in steals every year.

I agree that Chris Paul is the best PG in the league, but I disagree that "it's not even close."  The only one of this categories that you listed where he has an edge of Rondo is "scoring."  On the other hand, Rondo has the edge in defense and rebounding.

It's close, but, yeah, Paul is still slightly better. 

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2012, 11:38:15 PM »

Offline BballTim

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This is all not to mention the defensive three second rule and the rule changes involving screeners.  The game itself was different.  Kidd was elite at his game, Rondo is in a clump of 5 or so at his.  No shame in being roughly equivalent to CP3, Rose, Deron, Westbrook, Parker.

  Again, if you look at the point guards beyond Kidd (and possibly Payton) there was a dearth of top pgs in their prime when Kidd was elite. That doesn't make him a better player.

And why are there more elite PGs now?  Is it pure coincidence or are the rules and game itself more favorable to creating elite PGs?  Is it also pure coincidence that the two guys you listed (Kidd and Payton) are both 6-4 and well built?

  So you're claiming that players like Williams and Paul wouldn't be elite pgs 10 years ago? I disagree.

Regardless of the true answer, comparing stats from 99 to stats over a decade apart to conclude Rondo can top Kidd or to conclude anything else is a bit silly.

  What's silly is what you were doing, comparing Kidd at the height of his career to Rondo at the age of 25 or so. It's true Kidd at his best was better than Rondo is now, but it's also true that his best was better than his play at the age of 25.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2012, 11:52:11 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

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This is all not to mention the defensive three second rule and the rule changes involving screeners.  The game itself was different.  Kidd was elite at his game, Rondo is in a clump of 5 or so at his.  No shame in being roughly equivalent to CP3, Rose, Deron, Westbrook, Parker.

  Again, if you look at the point guards beyond Kidd (and possibly Payton) there was a dearth of top pgs in their prime when Kidd was elite. That doesn't make him a better player.

And why are there more elite PGs now?  Is it pure coincidence or are the rules and game itself more favorable to creating elite PGs?  Is it also pure coincidence that the two guys you listed (Kidd and Payton) are both 6-4 and well built?

  So you're claiming that players like Williams and Paul wouldn't be elite pgs 10 years ago? I disagree.

Regardless of the true answer, comparing stats from 99 to stats over a decade apart to conclude Rondo can top Kidd or to conclude anything else is a bit silly.

  What's silly is what you were doing, comparing Kidd at the height of his career to Rondo at the age of 25 or so. It's true Kidd at his best was better than Rondo is now, but it's also true that his best was better than his play at the age of 25.

I merely stated what I thought separates Kidd's prime (which was the topic at hand) from Rondo at present.  That is the only logical way to begin to address whether Rondo can be as good as Kidd in his prime.  First we must ask what Kidd's prime was, then we must ask where Rondo is now to see if he can ever get there.  Whether Rondo gets there during his prime remains to be seen.  I doubt he does. 

Comparing Kidd's prime to Rondo's present is the only way to begin to broach the topic itself to see if Rondo can find whatever is missing.  Calling that silly is, in effect, calling the thread silly, isn't it?  If you think the thread is silly, it begs the question of why you continue to participate in it.  Plenty of great threads on this forum, some enlightening, interesting, and not silly at all.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 12:03:19 AM by celtsfan84 »

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2012, 11:54:09 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

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And why are there more elite PGs now? 

because the best all around athletes in the world who are between 5'7" and 6'4" are deciding to play basketball and play PG rather than play any other position in any other sport.

That's it.
That seems highly unlikely.  Basketball wasn't exactly a niche sport airing on VS back in 1999.  Athletes between 5'7 and 6'4 had the very same choices back in the halycon days of 1999.

Why would decisions shift so dramatically where we have 2 elite point guards in 1999 and three times as many (maybe more) in 2012?
And yet the NBA was on a massive turn down in popularity, football running backs and WRs still ruled, and MLB was at the end of a huge upswing.

About the time the under 30 PGs of today were deciding what sport they most wanted to play they were watching the end of Michael Jordan and little guy Allen Iverson light up the NBA on a nightly basis. They were the heroes of that generation for the best athletes of that time. And so we have today's multi-faceted PGs.

When was the NBA in a massive downturn in popularity?  What timeframe are we talking about here?  How was Jordan's run (which ended in 98) a downturn in popularity?
Check the merchandising and television ratings of the very late 90's and early 2000's. The NBA was in the beginning of a massive loss of popularity. It didn't start to rebound until 2007-08 with the revival of the Celtics-Lakers rivalry. Why do you think owners were claiming massive losses for a decade before last years's lockout?

But wouldn't the 5'7 to 6'4 athletes entering their prime around 1999-2000 who are making the decision to play basketball have made that decision long before this downturn?  They should actually be already in the NBA if they entered their prime with Kidd.  Kidd himself entered the NBA in 1994, at a time of great prosperity in the NBA.  By your argument, there should have been plenty of elite point guards entering their prime with him.  He entered at an upturn, not at a downturn.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2012, 12:40:14 AM »

Online nickagneta

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Most of today's great PGs are between the ages of 20 and 30. That means back 12- 15 years ago they were 8-15 years old. Most great athletes chose which sport they will proceed forward in in high school, when they are 14-16 years old. A lot of these guys could have played other sports. Rondo was an unbelievable QB talent.

But as kids they were influenced by Iverson and MJ and decided to become basketball players rather than football or baseball players. Thats my theory why there is so many great PGs today. Because the best of the best athletes loved MJ and AI and wanted to be like them.
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2012, 02:20:24 AM »

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I disagree that "it's not even close."  The only one of this categories that you listed where he has an edge of Rondo is "scoring."  On the other hand, Rondo has the edge in defense and rebounding.

It's close, but, yeah, Paul is still slightly better.

It really isn't close...

Chris Paul plays far less 'risky' basketball.  He doesn't cheat on defense for a quick steal (often opening up offensive opportunities for the other team) and he rarely turns the ball over.

Rondo plays more 'flashy' then Paul, but Paul is more fundamentally sound.

Rondo's decision making is also not as good as Paul.  Rondo is still inconsistent - sometimes he makes great decisions, sometimes he makes very questionable ones.  This includes shot selection as well.

Rondo is a little bit better than Paul (over their careers) as a rebounder.  Both average around 4.5 per game over their careers.
As for scoring, it's not by a small amount...Paul is so much better a scorer than Rondo it's not even funny.  He has one of the best midrange jump shots of any PG not named Steve Nash, he's an excellent 3 point shooter, he's a near perfect free throw shooter, and he's excellent at scoring off the dribble.  Rondo is only really good at the latter...though when he improves at the other areas (which he already is) the discussion will be much closer.

D-Will is the only other PG you can really throw in the agument, and IMHO he's no longer on the level of those two guys.

Derek Rose (as a pure PG) is not even close, likewise Westbrook.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2012, 02:46:32 AM »

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There definate is one big thing Rondo has over Paul though, and that's health. Paul has quite an injury history.  Rondo has missed games here ans there, but his mostly been pretty durable.

If I had to choose a second best PG I'd probably have to say Rondo.  I think he's definately above Deron.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2012, 08:09:56 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I disagree that "it's not even close."  The only one of this categories that you listed where he has an edge of Rondo is "scoring."  On the other hand, Rondo has the edge in defense and rebounding.

It's close, but, yeah, Paul is still slightly better.

It really isn't close...

Chris Paul plays far less 'risky' basketball.  He doesn't cheat on defense for a quick steal (often opening up offensive opportunities for the other team) and he rarely turns the ball over.

Rondo plays more 'flashy' then Paul, but Paul is more fundamentally sound.

Rondo's decision making is also not as good as Paul.  Rondo is still inconsistent - sometimes he makes great decisions, sometimes he makes very questionable ones.  This includes shot selection as well.

Rondo is a little bit better than Paul (over their careers) as a rebounder.  Both average around 4.5 per game over their careers.
As for scoring, it's not by a small amount...Paul is so much better a scorer than Rondo it's not even funny.  He has one of the best midrange jump shots of any PG not named Steve Nash, he's an excellent 3 point shooter, he's a near perfect free throw shooter, and he's excellent at scoring off the dribble.  Rondo is only really good at the latter...though when he improves at the other areas (which he already is) the discussion will be much closer.

D-Will is the only other PG you can really throw in the agument, and IMHO he's no longer on the level of those two guys.

Derek Rose (as a pure PG) is not even close, likewise Westbrook.

  I'd say that Rondo is a better defender than Paul. Rondo's a better 1v1 defender but they have different styles (or roles). Paul sticks closer to his man while Rondo roams more and is more disruptive to the opposing offense as a whole. He's also a better rebounder, which shows up more in the playoffs.

  I'd also say that Rondo's a better passer than Paul although it's true that he make some riskier (or flashier) passes than Paul so he turns the ball over a little more, so I can see why people would prefer Paul. Paul's clearly a better scorer (I'd say Rondo's better at getting to the rim, everything else favors Paul) although if Rondo keeps playing like he is now and did during the playoffs the scoring gap would narrow quite a bit.

  I think that Rondo's somewhat better than Paul at running an offense, directing players around, playing the angles and finding/creating mismatches, although it's possible that CP3 doesn't have to do all of that because his teammates are more capable of creating their own shots than Rondo's teammates have been over the last few years. Lastly, I think that Rondo has (for lack of a better term) better court vision than Paul. What I mean is he's more able to make the pass that other people didn't think was available, in part because he reads what's happening on the floor quicker than other players do.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2012, 08:13:13 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I disagree that "it's not even close."  The only one of this categories that you listed where he has an edge of Rondo is "scoring."  On the other hand, Rondo has the edge in defense and rebounding.

It's close, but, yeah, Paul is still slightly better.

It really isn't close...

Chris Paul plays far less 'risky' basketball.  He doesn't cheat on defense for a quick steal (often opening up offensive opportunities for the other team) and he rarely turns the ball over.

Rondo plays more 'flashy' then Paul, but Paul is more fundamentally sound.

Rondo's decision making is also not as good as Paul.  Rondo is still inconsistent - sometimes he makes great decisions, sometimes he makes very questionable ones.  This includes shot selection as well.

Rondo is a little bit better than Paul (over their careers) as a rebounder.  Both average around 4.5 per game over their careers.
As for scoring, it's not by a small amount...Paul is so much better a scorer than Rondo it's not even funny.  He has one of the best midrange jump shots of any PG not named Steve Nash, he's an excellent 3 point shooter, he's a near perfect free throw shooter, and he's excellent at scoring off the dribble.  Rondo is only really good at the latter...though when he improves at the other areas (which he already is) the discussion will be much closer.

D-Will is the only other PG you can really throw in the agument, and IMHO he's no longer on the level of those two guys.

Derek Rose (as a pure PG) is not even close, likewise Westbrook.

I won't claim to watch a ton of Chris Paul games, but I don't believe you about the defense.  Chris Paul doesn't average two steals per game by never "cheating."  Of course, he cheats.  That's part of the job description for high turnover producing, defensively disruptive PGs. 

Otherwise, I guess we agree.  We both have Paul and Rondo ranked one and two respectively among NBA point guards.  How "close" it is ends up being a fairly subjective and arbitrary thing so I don't think there's much point in arguing that point further.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 08:22:35 AM by Celtics18 »

 

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