Author Topic: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.  (Read 10949 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2012, 04:29:44 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.
We live in the era of the point guard. Kidd never had anything like the competition Rondo now has at the position because Chris Paul is also arguably as good as Kidd was.

Chris Paul is arguably as good as Isiah Thomas was.  Actually, Chris Paul is arguably BETTER than Isiah Thomas was if you compare the stats (clearly Isiah had better teams/more playoff success).  I don't think there is any doubt that Chris Paul is better than Kidd was.  I think we're overrating Kidd a bit.  If we are looking at Kidd's era, I think Gary Payton was a better point guard than him.  I'm pretty sure Bill Simmons has a lengthy bit on this in his "Book of Basketball".  He had Kidd ranked #42 and Payton ranked #40.  Kidd had that two year window where the East was utter garbage (Walker/Pierce in the ECF, for example... Allen Iverson in the Finals, for another example) and were nothing but fodder for the Spurs and Lakers (and Kings had they ever made the finals)...

As mentioned, Rondo is a top 5 point guard right now with the likes of Chris Paul, Deron, Rose, Parker, Westbrook... and I'd say Kyrie Irving is probably already there as well.  Could see additional players crack the discussion like Steph Curry (if healthy), Ricky Rubio... heck... even John Wall (still only 22) and Brandon Jennings (still only 23) can enter this discussion.  We're in the middle of a point guard boom.  That doesn't take anything away from Rondo's huge stats in the 2009 and 2012 playoffs, but if we're looking at his regular season output... you're going to get rational pushback if you declare him anything more than a "Top 5 Point Guard".  Last year his efficiency rating was 5th behind Paul, Westbrook, Rose and Deron.  The year prior he was 7th behind Rose, Paul, Deron, Westbrook, Nash and Curry.    For what it's worth... so far this year (after 4 games) he is actually 1st ahead of Kyle Lowrie, Chris Paul and Brandon Jennings... but he's doing so by averaging 10 more minutes per game (42.3... highest in the entire league) and it's clearly way too early to put too much thought into those early stats.   
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:36:19 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2012, 04:30:15 PM »

Offline nostar

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 754
  • Tommy Points: 74
Chris Paul is also arguably as good as Kidd was.

It's not arguable. Paul is a better PG than Kidd was hands down and he's had it since day one. I'm super in the tank for Rondo, my second favorite player after KG but Paul is the best PG in the NBA and has been for at least the past 5 years.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2012, 04:41:59 PM »

Offline CapnDunks

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 222
  • Tommy Points: 13
If Rondo just stopped consistently passing up open looks I think he would have his best season.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2012, 04:42:47 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
I like how big of a deal people make out of the hand check rule, but are there any players that really had their games/careers changed drastically when it happened?  I mean it's fun to wonder about freaks like Jordan, "what if you couldn't at least touch him?" but some people act like it would've released all PGs from shackles back then, while if it were removed today it could hold a lot of current players dead in their tracks.

Again, freaks like LeBron would probably be somewhat less freakish, but the majority?  Rondo would probably pay to have guys put a hand on him rather than stand 5 feet in front of him.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2012, 04:44:33 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Maybe in terms of perceived skill/numbers (though still unlikely in that it's unlikely any given player will be as good as a first ballot hall of famer in his prime), but not in terms of relativity.

I think people really underestimate how much the rule changes have helped PGs like Rondo.

  How much have the rule changes helped Rondo? Are the defenders who give him a cushion overly worried about whether they're allowed to hand-check him? He'd probably be even more effective if his defender was that close to him.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2012, 04:59:58 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1182
  • Tommy Points: 80
Maybe in terms of perceived skill/numbers (though still unlikely in that it's unlikely any given player will be as good as a first ballot hall of famer in his prime), but not in terms of relativity.

I think people really underestimate how much the rule changes have helped PGs like Rondo.

  How much have the rule changes helped Rondo? Are the defenders who give him a cushion overly worried about whether they're allowed to hand-check him? He'd probably be even more effective if his defender was that close to him.

It's a domino effect that impacts more than an individual player on an individual play.  It increased overall league scoring, for instance, and led teams to have to play smaller and more athletic lineups with less size and intimidation.  With smaller, quicker PGs overall allowed more leeway, teams have to build rosters with quicker big men to react to them off of penetration and in the pick and roll. 

Thus, overall, smaller PGs take less of a pounding from big men when they drive into the paint.  The floor is also spread a lot better as immobile 7 footers are often replaced by athletic wings or athletic bigs.  A guy like Rasho Nesterovic has no place on an elite contender nowadays. The game itself is also quicker, which allows more scoring opportunities and fast break opportunities.  Rondo is certainly helped by this domino effect, whether teams play off of him or not.

It changes the entire lineup and the game itself.  It changes the guys he passes to, his opportunities, the guys that defend the rim, etc....

This is all not to mention the defensive three second rule and the rule changes involving screeners.  The game itself was different.  Kidd was elite at his game, Rondo is in a clump of 5 or so at his.  No shame in being roughly equivalent to CP3, Rose, Deron, Westbrook, Parker.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 05:14:12 PM by celtsfan84 »

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2012, 05:17:01 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
I like how big of a deal people make out of the hand check rule, but are there any players that really had their games/careers changed drastically when it happened?  I mean it's fun to wonder about freaks like Jordan, "what if you couldn't at least touch him?" but some people act like it would've released all PGs from shackles back then, while if it were removed today it could hold a lot of current players dead in their tracks.

Again, freaks like LeBron would probably be somewhat less freakish, but the majority?  Rondo would probably pay to have guys put a hand on him rather than stand 5 feet in front of him.


As someone else mentioned, it's less individual and more population. With the hand check stuff, it's really released scuttlebutt, previously undersized but fast PG's to be more effective, so there's a population boom there. Basically,  it's been PG inflation.

Someone like Lebron might see their numbers go down slightly, but not as much as weaker SF's numbers (essentially every other SF), so I bet he'd be, relatively speaking, even better in a tougher game.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2012, 05:45:55 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
This is all not to mention the defensive three second rule and the rule changes involving screeners.  The game itself was different.  Kidd was elite at his game, Rondo is in a clump of 5 or so at his.  No shame in being roughly equivalent to CP3, Rose, Deron, Westbrook, Parker.

  Again, if you look at the point guards beyond Kidd (and possibly Payton) there was a dearth of top pgs in their prime when Kidd was elite. That doesn't make him a better player.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2012, 06:21:52 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
Maybe in terms of perceived skill/numbers (though still unlikely in that it's unlikely any given player will be as good as a first ballot hall of famer in his prime), but not in terms of relativity.

I think people really underestimate how much the rule changes have helped PGs like Rondo.

  How much have the rule changes helped Rondo? Are the defenders who give him a cushion overly worried about whether they're allowed to hand-check him? He'd probably be even more effective if his defender was that close to him.

It's a domino effect that impacts more than an individual player on an individual play.  It increased overall league scoring, for instance, and led teams to have to play smaller and more athletic lineups with less size and intimidation.  With smaller, quicker PGs overall allowed more leeway, teams have to build rosters with quicker big men to react to them off of penetration and in the pick and roll. 

Thus, overall, smaller PGs take less of a pounding from big men when they drive into the paint.  The floor is also spread a lot better as immobile 7 footers are often replaced by athletic wings or athletic bigs.  A guy like Rasho Nesterovic has no place on an elite contender nowadays. The game itself is also quicker, which allows more scoring opportunities and fast break opportunities.  Rondo is certainly helped by this domino effect, whether teams play off of him or not.

It changes the entire lineup and the game itself.  It changes the guys he passes to, his opportunities, the guys that defend the rim, etc....

This is all not to mention the defensive three second rule and the rule changes involving screeners.  The game itself was different.  Kidd was elite at his game, Rondo is in a clump of 5 or so at his.  No shame in being roughly equivalent to CP3, Rose, Deron, Westbrook, Parker.
Well which is it?  Rondo is "helped" because there aren't as many strong 7 footers in the league now, but he's not hurt by all the quicker, more athletic bigs that were supposedly brought into the league specifically to counteract all the weak quick guards like Rondo?  The ones more suited to "react to [him] off of penetration and in the pick and roll."
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2012, 07:54:47 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1182
  • Tommy Points: 80
Maybe in terms of perceived skill/numbers (though still unlikely in that it's unlikely any given player will be as good as a first ballot hall of famer in his prime), but not in terms of relativity.

I think people really underestimate how much the rule changes have helped PGs like Rondo.

  How much have the rule changes helped Rondo? Are the defenders who give him a cushion overly worried about whether they're allowed to hand-check him? He'd probably be even more effective if his defender was that close to him.

It's a domino effect that impacts more than an individual player on an individual play.  It increased overall league scoring, for instance, and led teams to have to play smaller and more athletic lineups with less size and intimidation.  With smaller, quicker PGs overall allowed more leeway, teams have to build rosters with quicker big men to react to them off of penetration and in the pick and roll. 

Thus, overall, smaller PGs take less of a pounding from big men when they drive into the paint.  The floor is also spread a lot better as immobile 7 footers are often replaced by athletic wings or athletic bigs.  A guy like Rasho Nesterovic has no place on an elite contender nowadays. The game itself is also quicker, which allows more scoring opportunities and fast break opportunities.  Rondo is certainly helped by this domino effect, whether teams play off of him or not.

It changes the entire lineup and the game itself.  It changes the guys he passes to, his opportunities, the guys that defend the rim, etc....

This is all not to mention the defensive three second rule and the rule changes involving screeners.  The game itself was different.  Kidd was elite at his game, Rondo is in a clump of 5 or so at his.  No shame in being roughly equivalent to CP3, Rose, Deron, Westbrook, Parker.
Well which is it?  Rondo is "helped" because there aren't as many strong 7 footers in the league now, but he's not hurt by all the quicker, more athletic bigs that were supposedly brought into the league specifically to counteract all the weak quick guards like Rondo?  The ones more suited to "react to [him] off of penetration and in the pick and roll."

Easy, he is helped by the new rules.  The slower, stronger players have been phased out and the brand of basketball is quicker, with more scoring, more possessions, and an emphasis on speed, which he has.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2012, 07:55:48 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Better.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2012, 08:04:41 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1182
  • Tommy Points: 80
This is all not to mention the defensive three second rule and the rule changes involving screeners.  The game itself was different.  Kidd was elite at his game, Rondo is in a clump of 5 or so at his.  No shame in being roughly equivalent to CP3, Rose, Deron, Westbrook, Parker.

  Again, if you look at the point guards beyond Kidd (and possibly Payton) there was a dearth of top pgs in their prime when Kidd was elite. That doesn't make him a better player.

And why are there more elite PGs now?  Is it pure coincidence or are the rules and game itself more favorable to creating elite PGs?  Is it also pure coincidence that the two guys you listed (Kidd and Payton) are both 6-4 and well built?

Regardless of the true answer, comparing stats from 99 to stats over a decade apart to conclude Rondo can top Kidd or to conclude anything else is a bit silly.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 08:16:12 PM by celtsfan84 »

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2012, 08:12:05 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11688
  • Tommy Points: 1469
Maybe.



Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down.

I don't agree with that last part.  Even in his early to mid thirties, Rondo is going to be quick enough to stay with any guard.  As far as getting posted up, teams try it now, but, despite his thin frame, he's pretty wiry strong, and he knows how to fight down there. 

No, he'll never be as big and strong as Kidd, but Kidd was never as fast and quick as Rondo.  Sure, he'll slow down at some point, but he's going to be one of the fastest players in the NBA for at least another six or seven years. 

Look at Tony Parker.  Is he getting slow?
Parker isn't even in his 30s yet.  Players that rely on speed have not lasted as long as players that rely on size since the beginning of the league.  That's why centers nearing 40 are much more common than perimeter players.  PGs that make it into the league for other reasons (strength, passing, defense, shooting) simply have a better shot at lasting, look at the current oldest:  Nash, Kidd, Miller, Fisher, Billups.  They all had skill unrelated to speed unlike say, AI.

It's why Chris Paul went from MVP contender to firmly behind Deron Williams when coming back from injury.  When he and Deron start getting old we'll once again see Deron as clearly better.

Parker turned 30 in May.

I think Chris Paul will probably always be better than Deron Williams.  He's clearly slowed down athletically since coming back from injury, but his strength is a much underrated aspect of his game.  Of course, he's also one heck of a skilled, tough, smart basketball player. 

And, the adjectives that I used to describe Paul also apply to Rondo.  This is why I believe he has a very good chance to be a very good player well into his mid-thirties.  His speed is clearly a factor, but it's not solely what makes him a special player.
Well I assumed you were talking about the Tony Parker that emerged as arguably the Spurs best player in his late 20s, not the one that has only played 3 games since turning 30.  Neither one is old.  Actually, he's still in his prime (most often referred to as 26-30).

Also there have been arguments for 3-4 years that Williams is the better point guard.  He's been able to put up the same numbers on a team with absolutely nobody, while Paul has always had multiple guys he can just lob it up to.  Now in Brooklyn we can see them on a little more even playing field.  As for arguments that Williams is at least as good as Paul, those have been around since the draft (not as cut and dry as you think).

Finally, I hate to break it to you but tough and smart only get you so far in basketball.  As for skill, the whole point here is that Paul and Rondo are so highly skilled BECAUSE of their speed.  That's what they use to get themselves and their teammates good shots.  On the other hand, Nash has always gotten people good shots with his hesitation dribble and herky-jerky style.  Also creating a good shot for himself isn't nearly as crucial because he excels at making any type of shot at any distance no matter how contested it is.  Thus, as his body diminished, his skills in passing and scoring did not, the way a player who relies on his body/athleticism inevitably would.

I think you are wrong about Paul.  If you've watched him since his knee surgery you'll see that he's no speedster compared to the likes of Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, John Wall, Ty Lawson and other super fast point guards in today's NBA.  Paul doesn't beat you with speed.  He beats you with incredibly handles, crafty moves, and that strong, fullback body of his that throws at defenders to get them off balance.

Also, it's been a while since Deron Williams was in the discussion with Chris Paul as the best point guard in the league.  The guy's been slipping since he got the the New York Metropolitan area.  I guess he had an excuse last year, but he's off to a pretty poor start again this season.  It's early so he could still turn it around, but so far it's not promising.

When Rondo gets the nod for Eastern Conference starting All Star point guard, maybe that will motivate him to start amping it up again.   
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 08:19:57 PM by Celtics18 »
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2012, 08:14:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club

And why are there more elite PGs now? 

Because the best all around athletes in the world who are between 5'7" and 6'4" are deciding to play basketball and play PG rather than play any other position in any other sport.

That's it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 08:22:19 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2012, 08:19:29 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1182
  • Tommy Points: 80

And why are there more elite PGs now? 

because the best all around athletes in the world who are between 5'7" and 6'4" are deciding to play basketball and play PG rather than play any other position in any other sport.

That's it.
That seems highly unlikely.  Basketball wasn't exactly a niche sport airing on VS back in 1999.  Athletes between 5'7 and 6'4 had the very same choices back in the halcyon days of 1999.

Why would decisions shift so dramatically where we have 2 elite point guards in 1999 and three times as many (maybe more) in 2012?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 08:24:36 PM by celtsfan84 »