Author Topic: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.  (Read 5807 times)

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2012, 11:48:57 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable free throw shooter.
Here, fixed that for you :)
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2012, 11:54:25 AM »

Online BballTim

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.

  Stick Chris Paul back in 1999 and he'd still lead the league in win shares, it's silly to think otherwise. Which point guards besides Kidd do you think were at the level of Paul/Williams/Rose in the 4-5 year period when he was seen as the best pg in the league?

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2012, 11:57:21 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.

  Stick Chris Paul back in 1999 and he'd still lead the league in win shares, it's silly to think otherwise. Which point guards besides Kidd do you think were at the level of Paul/Williams/Rose in the 4-5 year period when he was seen as the best pg in the league?


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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2012, 12:30:53 PM »

Offline snively

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.

  Stick Chris Paul back in 1999 and he'd still lead the league in win shares, it's silly to think otherwise. Which point guards besides Kidd do you think were at the level of Paul/Williams/Rose in the 4-5 year period when he was seen as the best pg in the league?


Payton
Stockton
Tim Hardaway

Kevin Johnson was pretty good too at that time.
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2012, 12:33:16 PM »

Online BballTim

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.

  Stick Chris Paul back in 1999 and he'd still lead the league in win shares, it's silly to think otherwise. Which point guards besides Kidd do you think were at the level of Paul/Williams/Rose in the 4-5 year period when he was seen as the best pg in the league?


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Stockton
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2012, 12:35:12 PM »

Online BballTim

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.

  Stick Chris Paul back in 1999 and he'd still lead the league in win shares, it's silly to think otherwise. Which point guards besides Kidd do you think were at the level of Paul/Williams/Rose in the 4-5 year period when he was seen as the best pg in the league?


Payton
Stockton
Tim Hardaway

Kevin Johnson was pretty good too at that time.

  No, he was done by then.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2012, 12:40:36 PM »

Offline mgent

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Maybe.



Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down.

I don't agree with that last part.  Even in his early to mid thirties, Rondo is going to be quick enough to stay with any guard.  As far as getting posted up, teams try it now, but, despite his thin frame, he's pretty wiry strong, and he knows how to fight down there. 

No, he'll never be as big and strong as Kidd, but Kidd was never as fast and quick as Rondo.  Sure, he'll slow down at some point, but he's going to be one of the fastest players in the NBA for at least another six or seven years. 

Look at Tony Parker.  Is he getting slow?
Parker isn't even in his 30s yet.  Players that rely on speed have not lasted as long as players that rely on size since the beginning of the league.  That's why centers nearing 40 are much more common than perimeter players.  PGs that make it into the league for other reasons (strength, passing, defense, shooting) simply have a better shot at lasting, look at the current oldest:  Nash, Kidd, Miller, Fisher, Billups.  They all had skill unrelated to speed unlike say, AI.

It's why Chris Paul went from MVP contender to firmly behind Deron Williams when coming back from injury.  When he and Deron start getting old we'll once again see Deron as clearly better.
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2012, 12:41:33 PM »

Offline nostar

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Yeah I honestly do. I think looking at when Kidd took his turn into becoming the top PG in the NBA his numbers look a lot like JKidd's did at this time. Obviously Rondo's percentages need to improve to put him in that category but he's certainly on his way. Terrible as this sounds I think Rondo's numbers will look a lot more like Kidd's when Pierce retires. Kidd had a lot more responsibilities on his teams at 7 years in than Rondo does now, although that is changing slowly but surely.

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I don't think Tim was ever there. All-time though I would even argue that Gary Payton isn't in the top 10 although I think he's somewhere between 10-20. Stockton is top 3 for me after Johnson and either before or after Robertson depending on what you think of the competitive nature of 1960s organized basketball.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2012, 01:06:29 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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Insulting question.... j Kidd was traded several times before his peak years in. which he was  in the weakest conference possibly ever and he was always overrated and got to much credit. When the conference became a little more legit he dissappeared and was eventually done and traded....so yes and hes already there but rondo wont be in his prime without lebron James in his conference and a bunch of weak competition
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 01:15:14 PM by scaryjerry »

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2012, 02:00:58 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Maybe.



Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down.

I don't agree with that last part.  Even in his early to mid thirties, Rondo is going to be quick enough to stay with any guard.  As far as getting posted up, teams try it now, but, despite his thin frame, he's pretty wiry strong, and he knows how to fight down there. 

No, he'll never be as big and strong as Kidd, but Kidd was never as fast and quick as Rondo.  Sure, he'll slow down at some point, but he's going to be one of the fastest players in the NBA for at least another six or seven years. 

Look at Tony Parker.  Is he getting slow?
Parker isn't even in his 30s yet.  Players that rely on speed have not lasted as long as players that rely on size since the beginning of the league.  That's why centers nearing 40 are much more common than perimeter players.  PGs that make it into the league for other reasons (strength, passing, defense, shooting) simply have a better shot at lasting, look at the current oldest:  Nash, Kidd, Miller, Fisher, Billups.  They all had skill unrelated to speed unlike say, AI.

It's why Chris Paul went from MVP contender to firmly behind Deron Williams when coming back from injury.  When he and Deron start getting old we'll once again see Deron as clearly better.

Parker turned 30 in May.

I think Chris Paul will probably always be better than Deron Williams.  He's clearly slowed down athletically since coming back from injury, but his strength is a much underrated aspect of his game.  Of course, he's also one heck of a skilled, tough, smart basketball player. 

And, the adjectives that I used to describe Paul also apply to Rondo.  This is why I believe he has a very good chance to be a very good player well into his mid-thirties.  His speed is clearly a factor, but it's not solely what makes him a special player. 
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2012, 02:41:51 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I doubt it.  I don't think that's in any way a negative toward Rondo, though; Kidd in his prime was amazing.  I doubt we'll see Rondo put up a 17/7/11 season.

I do think there's an argument that Rondo is a better passer than Kidd was.

Maybe not, but here's something to chew on;  Over the last 4 playoffs combined, Rondo has played a total of 66 games, in which he's averaged 16.2/6.7/10.2. 

I realize it's more difficult to pull those kinds of numbers off over a full regular season, but I must note that Kidd put the numbers you gave up in a lock out shortened 50 game regular season. 

Right now, only four games in, Rondo's at 16/5/12.5.  That might be hard to sustain; I'm hoping he doesn't play 40+ minutes a night all season.  On the other hand, he's gotten those numbers with seeming ease, meaning he hasn't really had one of those games were he's really gone off yet. 

I guess all I'm saying is, if he's not there yet, he's pretty dang close.  And, yeah, that's definitely amazing. 
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2012, 03:23:55 PM »

Offline fitzhickey

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.

  Stick Chris Paul back in 1999 and he'd still lead the league in win shares, it's silly to think otherwise. Which point guards besides Kidd do you think were at the level of Paul/Williams/Rose in the 4-5 year period when he was seen as the best pg in the league?


Payton
Stockton
Tim Hardaway

  Payton, yes. Stockton in his late 30s? No. Hardaway at that point in his career? No.
Stockton still averaged 12 and 8 or something like that

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2012, 03:35:30 PM »

Offline mgent

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Maybe.



Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down.

I don't agree with that last part.  Even in his early to mid thirties, Rondo is going to be quick enough to stay with any guard.  As far as getting posted up, teams try it now, but, despite his thin frame, he's pretty wiry strong, and he knows how to fight down there. 

No, he'll never be as big and strong as Kidd, but Kidd was never as fast and quick as Rondo.  Sure, he'll slow down at some point, but he's going to be one of the fastest players in the NBA for at least another six or seven years. 

Look at Tony Parker.  Is he getting slow?
Parker isn't even in his 30s yet.  Players that rely on speed have not lasted as long as players that rely on size since the beginning of the league.  That's why centers nearing 40 are much more common than perimeter players.  PGs that make it into the league for other reasons (strength, passing, defense, shooting) simply have a better shot at lasting, look at the current oldest:  Nash, Kidd, Miller, Fisher, Billups.  They all had skill unrelated to speed unlike say, AI.

It's why Chris Paul went from MVP contender to firmly behind Deron Williams when coming back from injury.  When he and Deron start getting old we'll once again see Deron as clearly better.

Parker turned 30 in May.

I think Chris Paul will probably always be better than Deron Williams.  He's clearly slowed down athletically since coming back from injury, but his strength is a much underrated aspect of his game.  Of course, he's also one heck of a skilled, tough, smart basketball player. 

And, the adjectives that I used to describe Paul also apply to Rondo.  This is why I believe he has a very good chance to be a very good player well into his mid-thirties.  His speed is clearly a factor, but it's not solely what makes him a special player.
Well I assumed you were talking about the Tony Parker that emerged as arguably the Spurs best player in his late 20s, not the one that has only played 3 games since turning 30.  Neither one is old.  Actually, he's still in his prime (most often referred to as 26-30).

Also there have been arguments for 3-4 years that Williams is the better point guard.  He's been able to put up the same numbers on a team with absolutely nobody, while Paul has always had multiple guys he can just lob it up to.  Now in Brooklyn we can see them on a little more even playing field.  As for arguments that Williams is at least as good as Paul, those have been around since the draft (not as cut and dry as you think).

Finally, I hate to break it to you but tough and smart only get you so far in basketball.  As for skill, the whole point here is that Paul and Rondo are so highly skilled BECAUSE of their speed.  That's what they use to get themselves and their teammates good shots.  On the other hand, Nash has always gotten people good shots with his hesitation dribble and herky-jerky style.  Also creating a good shot for himself isn't nearly as crucial because he excels at making any type of shot at any distance no matter how contested it is.  Thus, as his body diminished, his skills in passing and scoring did not, the way a player who relies on his body/athleticism inevitably would.
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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2012, 04:07:29 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Maybe in terms of perceived skill/numbers (though still unlikely in that it's unlikely any given player will be as good as a first ballot hall of famer in his prime), but not in terms of relativity.

I think people really underestimate how much the rule changes have helped PGs like Rondo. But because they've helped rondo, they've helped a lot of others (CP, Lowry, Lawson, Irving, Parker, Nash, Westbrook, etc.), so the entire field of comparison has shifted upwards. Kidd, no matter what era, was always going to stand out because he had in his prime the same speed as today's guards but was so uniquely gifted in his size and strength. CP is probably talented enough that he would have still stood out in the handcheck era, but I bet D-Will would have been considered at least as good as CP3 if both hit their primes healthy a few years ago. Unfortunately, Rondo's production relative to his position is just, at this point, not enough superior to enter the Kidd-Prime stratosphere. I hope it gets there, though.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2012, 04:12:34 PM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.
We live in the era of the point guard. Kidd never had anything like the competition Rondo now has at the position because Chris Paul is also arguably as good as Kidd was.

 

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