Author Topic: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.  (Read 5689 times)

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 08:39:42 AM »

Online wdleehi

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Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down. 


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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2012, 09:06:44 AM »

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Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down.

I don't agree with that last part.  Even in his early to mid thirties, Rondo is going to be quick enough to stay with any guard.  As far as getting posted up, teams try it now, but, despite his thin frame, he's pretty wiry strong, and he knows how to fight down there. 

No, he'll never be as big and strong as Kidd, but Kidd was never as fast and quick as Rondo.  Sure, he'll slow down at some point, but he's going to be one of the fastest players in the NBA for at least another six or seven years. 

Look at Tony Parker.  Is he getting slow?

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2012, 09:29:40 AM »

Online wdleehi

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Biggest thing Rondo could do that Kidd did, become a respectable 3 point shooter. 


He will never be able to post up other PGs.

He will not be able to defend SG later in his career once he slows down.

I don't agree with that last part.  Even in his early to mid thirties, Rondo is going to be quick enough to stay with any guard.  As far as getting posted up, teams try it now, but, despite his thin frame, he's pretty wiry strong, and he knows how to fight down there. 

No, he'll never be as big and strong as Kidd, but Kidd was never as fast and quick as Rondo.  Sure, he'll slow down at some point, but he's going to be one of the fastest players in the NBA for at least another six or seven years. 

Look at Tony Parker.  Is he getting slow?


I didn't put a time frame on it, but everyone will eventually slow down.  I think he will have a harder time holding onto a large role as that happens vs. Kidd because his game is completely dependent on speed at this moment. 

This is not a terrible thing.  Eventually all players retire. 

When comparing two player as who will be better, longevity is just another piece to look at.


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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2012, 09:52:24 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.
I disagree. He made Hollins look like a good player last year and made Quis look pretty good as well. Those are just end of the bench guys. Obviously he makes everyone better.
IMO, hes already at the same level and even better when the playoffs come around.

Aside from this being completely untrue as they both looked like horrible players last year, you're saying he made two league minimum, end of bench players look like two league minimum, end of bench players.  Hollins and Marquis both signed league minimum, end of bench contracts.  Marquis in particular just had the worst year of his entire career.  I'm not blaming Rondo for that, but Hollins and Marquis don't help his case.  At all.  You can certainly find a better comparison than that.   

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2012, 10:06:31 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

Sure, but Rondo's numbers should be better.  The NBA game is now much more wide open in Rondo's prime than it was in Kidd's prime.  This is evidenced by the fact that there are a bunch of players playing similarly to Rondo at his position (Westbrook, Parker, Rose, CP3, DeRon) while Kidd was pretty far ahead of the pack when he played. 

Basketball in the year 1999 and in the year 2012 are different animals that favor the PG.  Much easier to be a penetrator like Rondo when there is no size in the middle.  The current NBA champions played a power forward at center and a small forward at power forward.  The 1999 NBA champions played two 7 footers.

Do the same comparison for Tony Parker.  Parker's numbers are substantially better.  Are you saying Parker is also better than Kidd?  Heck, Kyle Lowry's numbers are even comparable.  How many current PGs have a chance to be better than Kidd in his prime using a simple statistics argument? Dozens?  I mean, geez, Kyle Lowry is comparable by the stats you are considering. 

I'd say that a comparison of where they ranked during their careers or who outperformed them during their own era would be a better comparison.  Otherwise, a 2012 point guard outperforming a 1999 point guard should be no surprise to anyone.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=kiddja01&y1=1999&p2=rondora01&y2=2012&p3=parketo01&y3=2008&p4=lowryky01&y4=2012
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 11:24:28 AM by celtsfan84 »

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2012, 10:23:16 AM »

Online Kane3387

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One thing about Kidd in New Jersey was how he changed the culture. It was similar to KG and his effect on Boston. I am unsure whether that is in Rondo's DNA. As far as stats go, I believe Rondo compares very well.

One thing Rondo has never had that Kidd always seemed to have was an elite athlete - yet still all-star caliber player - who can run on the break with him. If Rondo could play with a guy like that then I think he could impact the game consistently in a top 5 player way because of the ways he could play off a guy like that.

In his prime Kidd was very special when he played with McDyess, Marion, Martin, Jefferson, and even Vince Carter to a degree.

It's honestly why I have always been intrigued with a guy like Josh Smith or Rudy Gay. I feel that kind of athletic talent could only help Rondo showcase his talent even more.

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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2012, 10:54:21 AM »

Offline celtics2

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No not as good as Kidd in his prime and not in top NBA ten but in top 5 in Point Guards.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 11:02:37 AM »

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I doubt it.  I don't think that's in any way a negative toward Rondo, though; Kidd in his prime was amazing.  I doubt we'll see Rondo put up a 17/7/11 season.

I do think there's an argument that Rondo is a better passer than Kidd was.


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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2012, 11:20:56 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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I dont know, I could see it happening especially if KG and Pierce continue to slow down at a huge rate. When Kidd was Rondo's age he has a 17 points, 7 rebounds, and 11 assists per game season. But Kidd averaged 3 more shots per game while shooting basically the same percentage as Rondo. Also averaged 2 more free throws per game.

If Rondo was more aggressive going to the basket I dont see why he couldnt average 16 to 17 a game but he is often very passive. I feel like Rondo could use his speed to get to the basket everytime down the floor, it doesnt make sense why he doesnt do it more often.

To see Rondo average 16 points, 6 boards, and 12 assists wouldnt surprise me in the least and those numbers are comparable to Kidd's bests statistical season.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2012, 11:27:11 AM »

Online BballTim

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

Sure, but Rondo's numbers should be better.  The NBA game is now much more wide open in Rondo's prime than it was in Kidd's prime.  This is evidenced by the fact that there are a bunch of players playing similarly to Rondo at his position (Westbrook, Parker, Rose, CP3, DeRon) while Kidd was pretty far ahead of the pack when he played. 

Basketball in the year 1999 and in the year 2012 are different animals that favor the PG.  Much easier to be a penetrator like Rondo when there is no size in the middle.  The current NBA champions played a power forward at center and a small forward at power forward.  The 1999 NBA champions played two 7 footers.

Do the same comparison for Tony Parker.  Parker's numbers are substantially better.  Are you saying Parker is also better than Kidd?  Heck, Kyle Lowry's numbers are even comparable.  How many current PGs are better than Kidd in his prime? Dozens?  I'd say that a comparison of where they ranked during their careers or who outperformed them during their own era would be a better comparison.  Otherwise, a 2012 point guard outperforming a 1999 point guard should be no surprise to anyone.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=kiddja01&y1=1999&p2=rondora01&y2=2012&p3=parketo01&y3=2008&p4=lowryky01&y4=2012

  First of all, the nba isn't that much more wide open now than it was in 1999, and the fact that the Spurs had Robinson and Duncan doesn't mean that there aren't any 7 footers in the league now. The difference for point guards is more the changes to the hand-check rule, and that favors higher scoring point guards than Kidd or Rondo. Lowry and Parker fall way short of Rondo and Kidd in just about any point guard skill other than scoring so I don't think they're better than Rondo or Kidd.

  But the main point of my post is that you're comparing Kidd to Rondo, but you're comparing Rondo now to Kidd at the height of his career. While I don't agree that Kidd was a better passer than Rondo, you're talking about Kidd;s feel for the game being slightly better than Rondo's is now when Kidd had 4-5 more years of experience than Rondo has.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 11:36:53 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

Sure, but Rondo's numbers should be better.  The NBA game is now much more wide open in Rondo's prime than it was in Kidd's prime.  This is evidenced by the fact that there are a bunch of players playing similarly to Rondo at his position (Westbrook, Parker, Rose, CP3, DeRon) while Kidd was pretty far ahead of the pack when he played. 

Basketball in the year 1999 and in the year 2012 are different animals that favor the PG.  Much easier to be a penetrator like Rondo when there is no size in the middle.  The current NBA champions played a power forward at center and a small forward at power forward.  The 1999 NBA champions played two 7 footers.

Do the same comparison for Tony Parker.  Parker's numbers are substantially better.  Are you saying Parker is also better than Kidd?  Heck, Kyle Lowry's numbers are even comparable.  How many current PGs are better than Kidd in his prime? Dozens?  I'd say that a comparison of where they ranked during their careers or who outperformed them during their own era would be a better comparison.  Otherwise, a 2012 point guard outperforming a 1999 point guard should be no surprise to anyone.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=kiddja01&y1=1999&p2=rondora01&y2=2012&p3=parketo01&y3=2008&p4=lowryky01&y4=2012

  First of all, the nba isn't that much more wide open now than it was in 1999, and the fact that the Spurs had Robinson and Duncan doesn't mean that there aren't any 7 footers in the league now. The difference for point guards is more the changes to the hand-check rule, and that favors higher scoring point guards than Kidd or Rondo. Lowry and Parker fall way short of Rondo and Kidd in just about any point guard skill other than scoring so I don't think they're better than Rondo or Kidd.

  But the main point of my post is that you're comparing Kidd to Rondo, but you're comparing Rondo now to Kidd at the height of his career. While I don't agree that Kidd was a better passer than Rondo, you're talking about Kidd;s feel for the game being slightly better than Rondo's is now when Kidd had 4-5 more years of experience than Rondo has.

So when Rondo penetrates in the lane against Miami in a playoff series, and the only resistance there is Chris Bosh, you don't think that matters?  Or that the NBA just eliminated the Center position from All-Star ballots?

Of course there are 7 footers in the league now.  They're just overall less talented and have a lesser impact on the game.  The NBA title used to be decided by who has the best big men (aside from MJ, arguably the best player in NBA history) but is now decided largely by perimeter players. 

Watch any of the NBA Finals?  How much did Joel Anthony and Kendrick Perkins matter?  Please don't be blind to the changes in the NBA.  Doc certainly isn't, evidenced by him playing Jeff Green at Center for stretches of the Celtics-HEAT game.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2012, 11:38:00 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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From a individual stats standpoint, Rondo should be as good, if not better.

What I'm looking for is for Rondo's playmaking impact to reach that level, and it's simply not there yet, at least it's inconsistent. He needs to impose his will better on the offensive side, attack picks and screens more aggressively, and limit his nonchalant ways. Else, we'll keep seeing these offensive lulls that are mind-boggling at the moment.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 11:39:06 AM »

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Certainly not outside the realm of possbility but he's not there now.  Top ten?  Sure. He's definitely in the discussion there.

I have doubts he'll be top 5.  Look at some of the guys in the league now & going forward but if improves on some facets of his game, then it can happen although I err on the side that says he won't get there.

In regards to the Kidd question, sure he can.  He has that potential.  Will he?  Well, he needs to work on some things but you can see the gifts he has and where it can lead.


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Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2012, 11:40:12 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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In what universe is he not pretty much already there?  Passing, rebounding, and defense are all easily comparable.  Equally streaky shooters.  Kidd might have had a slight advantage at posting up and getting to the line, but overall Rondo is a much more efficient scorer.

It's not like he needs this giant leap or anything.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty close already.  I think he is missing one thing.

Magic Johnson constantly talks about, as a point guard, feeding guys at the appropriate times for a variety of reasons (maybe to build their confidence, maybe to get them to work harder on defense, etc...) and also the skill in finding the right guy with the right pass - some guys are better at catching different passes and like the ball in different spots. 

Rondo has some of this skill, but not to the level of Kidd.  Look at how much money Kidd made for Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, and even Mikki Moore due to his ability to feed them with the right pass in the right place at the right time.  He made Mikki Moore look so good he got an $18 million contract with the Kings!  Rondo would've never made Mikki look good enough to get $18 million.

It is hard to describe exactly, because it is so innate, immeasurable, and intangible, but I'd say Rondo is very close but is a bit lower on the "floor general", let's call it, scale than Kidd.

  Aside from the fact that I'd say that Rondo is a somewhat better passer and floor general than Kidd was, you have to consider a few things. First of all Martin was a pretty good player and there wasn't any dropoff of note to his game when he went to Denver, the dropoff happened after he had a serious knee injury. More importantly, Rondo's still a few years younger than Kidd was when he joined the Nets and 6-7 years younger than Kidd was when he got Moore that contract. I'm sure that the experience between now and then will improve his passing.

  If you compare Rondo and Kidd up through the age Rondo was last year, the numbers were pretty comparable, in fact Rondo's were probably a little better.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BAGLI

In 1999, Jason Kidd led all point guards in win shares.  In 2012, Chris Paul (not Rajon Rondo) led all point guards in win shares. 

Kidd was clearly the best NBA point guard while in his prime (and probably even before his prime).

Rondo is one of many (CP3, Rose, Parker, DeRon, Westbrook).  And as Rondo ages, other guys like Kyrie will enter that equation.  Will Rondo ever be head and shoulders above the pack like Kidd was?  I doubt it.

Re: Will Rondo ever be as good as J Kidd in his prime.
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2012, 11:46:46 AM »

Offline snively

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Kidd's 2-guard size and strength made him such a beast defensively and on the boards.  But he never had anything like Rondo's speed.

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