Author Topic: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good  (Read 11634 times)

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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2012, 02:58:21 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. … Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the ‘new, wonderful good society’ which shall now be Rome’s, interpreted to mean ‘more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.’” –Roman statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

Does the Tea Party just have a wiki of phony historical quotes or something?  Earliest recorded instance of that quote is 1965 in a speech criticizing LBJ's Great Society, and there's no indication Cicero ever said any such thing.

Just because you found a guy on a message board saying thats the first time he saw it referenced doesnt mean its fake.

That's technically true, but I'm not seeing anything that says it isn't fake (or better yet, that its legitimate).

I did a search to try to find a funny picture for being correct on a technicality.  This is the best thing that came up....

Enjoy.

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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2012, 03:01:29 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. … Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the ‘new, wonderful good society’ which shall now be Rome’s, interpreted to mean ‘more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.’” –Roman statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

Does the Tea Party just have a wiki of phony historical quotes or something?  Earliest recorded instance of that quote is 1965 in a speech criticizing LBJ's Great Society, and there's no indication Cicero ever said any such thing.

Don't care who said it, it's exactly what's been going in this country for decades. Welcome to Rome 2.0.

Eh, that's a whole nother argument, suffice to say I disagree and leave it at that. 

But I do like the symmetry of a 1960s conservative making up a quote to call 1960s America Rome, and 50 years later conservatives copy-pasting the same fake quote to say 2010s America is the REAL Rome, super cereal this time.  Hope I live long enough to watch 2060s conservatives doing exactly the same thing.  Circle of life, and all that.

Rome fell over the span of a number of generations. The 60's were not that long ago. They also thought they were too big and powerful to fall as well....

And why did Rome fall?

EDIT: Too snarky.

But, I am getting tired of the Rome comparisons. Lot more to it than 'big bureaucratically gifted empire -----> fail'

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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2012, 03:03:07 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. … Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the ‘new, wonderful good society’ which shall now be Rome’s, interpreted to mean ‘more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.’” –Roman statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

Does the Tea Party just have a wiki of phony historical quotes or something?  Earliest recorded instance of that quote is 1965 in a speech criticizing LBJ's Great Society, and there's no indication Cicero ever said any such thing.

Just because you found a guy on a message board saying thats the first time he saw it referenced doesnt mean its fake.

That's technically true, but I'm not seeing anything that says it isn't fake (or better yet, that its legitimate).

I did a search to try to find a funny picture for being correct on a technicality.  This is the best thing that came up....

Enjoy.




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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2012, 03:04:35 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. … Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the ‘new, wonderful good society’ which shall now be Rome’s, interpreted to mean ‘more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.’” –Roman statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

Does the Tea Party just have a wiki of phony historical quotes or something?  Earliest recorded instance of that quote is 1965 in a speech criticizing LBJ's Great Society, and there's no indication Cicero ever said any such thing.

Don't care who said it, it's exactly what's been going in this country for decades. Welcome to Rome 2.0.

Eh, that's a whole nother argument, suffice to say I disagree and leave it at that. 

But I do like the symmetry of a 1960s conservative making up a quote to call 1960s America Rome, and 50 years later conservatives copy-pasting the same fake quote to say 2010s America is the REAL Rome, super cereal this time.  Hope I live long enough to watch 2060s conservatives doing exactly the same thing.  Circle of life, and all that.

Rome fell over the span of a number of generations. The 60's were not that long ago. They also thought they were too big and powerful to fall as well....

And why did Rome fall?

Many factors, but the main reason is the people feel asleep and became fat and lazy. In essence, they turned away from what made them great. It's a condition that many past empires fell victim too. There is a reason why the Emperors gave bread and circuses, it was to keep the people pacified while they consolidated more power and wealth. 

They were also broke.

Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2012, 03:06:31 PM »

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EDIT: Too snarky.

But, I am getting tired of the Rome comparisons. Lot more to it than 'big bureaucratically gifted empire -----> fail'

I do think that the impending collapse of America will somehow involve Joe Biden playing the fiddle, however.


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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2012, 03:06:57 PM »

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The disgust that many show for religion in this country is in itself disgusting. Do we want forced religion on people? No. But when religious values were embraced in this country, we were better off. Before the social cleansing of religion from the public view took place, we lived in a country where families were stronger, metal detectors were not needed at schools, teenage pregnancy was a shock, not the norm, parents could let their kids play outside without much worry, and their minds were not corrupted with the garbage that is on TV. Kids have no innocence anymore because of the secularism forced on us by the left. The tossing out of the values that helped build this country have contributed greatly to the societal ills we have today.

I don't wish to reduce your entire argument to this one statement - you said much more than this, and it's not my intent to mis-represent you.  But I have to take exception with this mis-characterization of American history.  I am a Christian, and happily so, but unless your "we" doesn't include folks like me, I don't believe that "when religious beliefs were embraced in this country, we were better off."   

I'm not sure what era you're referring to, but you don't have to go back very far to a time of racism and intolerance.  And once you get there, it goes all the way back to the founding.  As far as families being stronger, if by stronger you mean "more oppressive to women, who could be routinely abused, and were seldom allowed control of their own money, body, or vote," then I would agree with you. 

As far as the secularities forced on our children by the left (I have four children of my own), and the garbage that is on TV, I would say that the source of both those things is more often big business trying to sell us something.  Crap stays on TV because crap sells, and if it sells then the purveyors of it will keep pumping it out.  It has something to do with free market economy, I think (which seems a favorite of the right, not the left).  You could get rid of it if you regulated the industry, I'm sure (but hey, regulation is for socialists, right?)
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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2012, 03:15:20 PM »

Offline Brendan

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This is a good read and on topic:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/334779.php

Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2012, 03:16:32 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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...

Eh, that's a whole nother argument, suffice to say I disagree and leave it at that. 

But I do like the symmetry of a 1960s conservative making up a quote to call 1960s America Rome, and 50 years later conservatives copy-pasting the same fake quote to say 2010s America is the REAL Rome, super cereal this time.  Hope I live long enough to watch 2060s conservatives doing exactly the same thing.  Circle of life, and all that.

Rome fell over the span of a number of generations. The 60's were not that long ago. They also thought they were too big and powerful to fall as well....

And it's not like the macro trend from the 1960s ever stopped.

The major social issues and changes of our time are the direct result of the 1960s. One of my former bosses, who came of age in the '60s (and is not a Christian, as far as I know), said his generation ruined it for mine, and I believe him.

Of course, I'm sure, the upheaval of the '60s didn't happen on its own, without prior, more subtle developments contributing to it.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2012, 03:22:19 PM »

Online Donoghus

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...

Eh, that's a whole nother argument, suffice to say I disagree and leave it at that. 

But I do like the symmetry of a 1960s conservative making up a quote to call 1960s America Rome, and 50 years later conservatives copy-pasting the same fake quote to say 2010s America is the REAL Rome, super cereal this time.  Hope I live long enough to watch 2060s conservatives doing exactly the same thing.  Circle of life, and all that.

Rome fell over the span of a number of generations. The 60's were not that long ago. They also thought they were too big and powerful to fall as well....

And it's not like the macro trend from the 1960s ever stopped.

The major social issues and changes of our time are the direct result of the 1960s. One of my former bosses, who came of age in the '60s (and is not a Christian, as far as I know), said his generation ruined it for mine, and I believe him.

Of course, I'm sure, the upheaval of the '60s didn't happen on its own, without prior, more subtle developments contributing to it.

That Civil Rights Act in '64 was a real mistake, I tell ya.


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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2012, 03:22:50 PM »

Online foulweatherfan

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In <2000 year-old news, Politico has an excellent post-mortem breakdown of the election by Republican politicians and party officials:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/83537.html


Note the repeated mentions of immigration reform as the first step to realigning with the current electorate.  I strongly believe that's the first place we'll see the party start shifting away from the current base.


EDIT:  Quote that I liked but others may not -

“The conservative media bubble is totally self-defeating for us. It denies us any realistic view of the real world of the general election, assuming instead that all politics is simply an extension of the Republican primary. It blindly drives us off one cliff after another,” said Republican presidential strategist Mike Murphy. “We will not win the real world of big-turnout, presidential-year politics until our bubble realizes that a big world exists outside the precincts of the Republican primary...Much of the conservative media bubble, with its isolation, denial and semi-paranoia, only incentivized us to lose general elections.”
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 03:29:09 PM by fairweatherfan »

Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2012, 03:26:28 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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This is a good read and on topic:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/334779.php

Its a valid point (that this all happened before to Democrats in 2004, and they rebounded). In the mid 2000's democrats were demoralized by a Bush 2nd term. It seemed unfathomable after the way many at the time (and still do) felt like Bush was a president appointed, not elected. And the swift boat stuff which I still think is the most despicable ad campaign in my lifetime politically...it was bad. it doesn't match the disbelief of 2000-2001, but it was bad. Bad time to be a democrat and young and idealist.

Judging from some of the posts here, I imagine there are conservative posters who feel similarly disparaged and lost.

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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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I wholeheartedly agree that those of us on the religious right will not want to throw away our votes, but if the GOP changes its stance on those hot-button social issues, then voting Republican will essentially be the same as voting Democrat anyway; there will be little, if any, real difference between the two parties, and many of us have already felt that way the last two elections.
This isn't true. Democrats aren't ever going to be the party of deficit/budget/war hawks, because of the liberal base of the party. The only way to see no difference between the parties in this particular case is to only focus on social issues, and a party based around social issues is going nowhere.

Quote
A GOP switch to social liberalism would spur a loss of membership among its base that would far outweigh any gains it made in Democrat converts.
A loss of membership to whom? An irrelevant third party? Certainly they aren't going to switch to D themselves.

Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2012, 03:30:55 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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EDIT:  Quote that I liked but others may not -

“The conservative media bubble is totally self-defeating for us. It denies us any realistic view of the real world of the general election, assuming instead that all politics is simply an extension of the Republican primary. It blindly drives us off one cliff after another,” said Republican presidential strategist Mike Murphy. “We will not win the real world of big-turnout, presidential-year politics until our bubble realizes that a big world exists outside the precincts of the Republican primary...Much of the conservative media bubble, with its isolation, denial and semi-paranoia, only incentivized us to lose general elections.”
Mike Murphy is a cool guy. I miss the days when he was advising the McCain campaign, back in the heady days when McCain wasn't out of his mind.

Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2012, 03:53:36 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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Eh, that's a whole nother argument, suffice to say I disagree and leave it at that. 

But I do like the symmetry of a 1960s conservative making up a quote to call 1960s America Rome, and 50 years later conservatives copy-pasting the same fake quote to say 2010s America is the REAL Rome, super cereal this time.  Hope I live long enough to watch 2060s conservatives doing exactly the same thing.  Circle of life, and all that.

Rome fell over the span of a number of generations. The 60's were not that long ago. They also thought they were too big and powerful to fall as well....

And it's not like the macro trend from the 1960s ever stopped.

The major social issues and changes of our time are the direct result of the 1960s. One of my former bosses, who came of age in the '60s (and is not a Christian, as far as I know), said his generation ruined it for mine, and I believe him.

Of course, I'm sure, the upheaval of the '60s didn't happen on its own, without prior, more subtle developments contributing to it.

That Civil Rights Act in '64 was a real mistake, I tell ya.

Yes, Mr. Sarcasm, that's precisely what I was trying to say.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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Re: GOP in Deep Trouble, Ron Paul Looking Good
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2012, 03:59:16 PM »

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I wholeheartedly agree that those of us on the religious right will not want to throw away our votes, but if the GOP changes its stance on those hot-button social issues, then voting Republican will essentially be the same as voting Democrat anyway; there will be little, if any, real difference between the two parties, and many of us have already felt that way the last two elections.
This isn't true. Democrats aren't ever going to be the party of deficit/budget/war hawks, because of the liberal base of the party. The only way to see no difference between the parties in this particular case is to only focus on social issues, and a party based around social issues is going nowhere.

Quote
A GOP switch to social liberalism would spur a loss of membership among its base that would far outweigh any gains it made in Democrat converts.
A loss of membership to whom? An irrelevant third party? Certainly they aren't going to switch to D themselves.

Ok, I can see the difference regarding deficit/budget/war. But for many conservatives, social issues get top billing, and I can't see us voting for any party that's down with abortion and same-sex marriage, regardless of the party's stance on deficit/budget/war. Maybe there won't be a relevant third party, I don't know. I'm not much for political predictions. All I know is that I'll never vote for a Barack Obama or Joe Biden, and I'll never be excited to vote for a John McCain or Mitt Romney, so who knows, maybe I just won't vote for president anymore.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis


 

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