Author Topic: Election day 2012  (Read 30504 times)

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Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #540 on: November 07, 2012, 01:25:49 PM »

Offline foulweatherfan

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What last night proved was you can no longer win a Presidential election with just the "white" vote. The Republican Party has to move to the center on social issues(the big no discuss, gay rights, immigration) and start to go after the black, latino, and gay vote.

Some pretty interesting stats on this:

- About 45% of Obama voters were minorities.  The winning coalition was close to being made up mostly of non-white people.  Would never have been possible even a few years ago.

- Romney won white voters by the same 20 point margin that Reagan did in 1980.  But the demographics have shifted so much that Reagan's landslide becomes Romney's loss.

Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #541 on: November 07, 2012, 01:28:59 PM »

Offline IndeedProceed

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In that case, the Republicans would be a carbon copy of the Democrats (with the exception of fiscal conservatism), and thus redundant.
Republicans would also still be the party of business interest and limited government. Going liberal on social policy doesn't mean donkeys all the way down.

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Pretty much would alienate us so-called "religious" voters, though I'm sure that would make lots of people happy.
I'm not gonna lie, I'd love to see religion taken out of politics.

Thank you for your honesty. I do think, though, that there's a double standard in regard to "religion in politics." It seems to me that a lot of social liberals 1) say that religion should be left out of politics; 2) but they categorize only "traditional" religious folk (such as us Christians) as "religious"; 3) thus demonizing and alienating us, all the while never admitting that, in truth, everyone is "religious," because everyone has a belief system. This tactic is simply an attempt rid the public-policy arena of a particular belief system that is anathema to what liberals want (abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.).

Speaking for myself, if Muslims or Jews or Mormons or Buddhists or anyone else out there tried to put forth policies, social or otherwise, that were dependent entirely on religious teachings for merit (like, for instance, same-sex marriage, teaching creationism), I would be equally opposed to that.

I don't think its fair to say Christians or religion in general are persecuted. People can still worship as they please, and live their life without fear of legitimate persecution or harassment. Our nation is a mostly secular one, and one of our foundational rules is that we won't force others to live under the religious law of someone else's religion.

 

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Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #542 on: November 07, 2012, 01:31:06 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Thank you for your honesty. I do think, though, that there's a double standard in regard to "religion in politics." It seems to me that a lot of social liberals 1) say that religion should be left out of politics; 2) but they categorize only "traditional" religious folk (such as us Christians) as "religious"; 3) thus demonizing and alienating us, all the while never admitting that, in truth, everyone is "religious," because everyone has a belief system. This tactic is simply an attempt rid the public-policy arena of a particular belief system that is anathema to what liberals want (abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.).
Civil rights isn't really a religion, though. It is too broad to consider a "belief system" to be a religion, since now everything is a religion, therefore nothing is religious. My demarcation point: if you have invisible sky-friend(s) and/or an afterlife, it's probably a religion.

Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #543 on: November 07, 2012, 01:37:14 PM »

Offline D Dub

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Thank you for your honesty. I do think, though, that there's a double standard in regard to "religion in politics." It seems to me that a lot of social liberals 1) say that religion should be left out of politics; 2) but they categorize only "traditional" religious folk (such as us Christians) as "religious"; 3) thus demonizing and alienating us, all the while never admitting that, in truth, everyone is "religious," because everyone has a belief system. This tactic is simply an attempt rid the public-policy arena of a particular belief system that is anathema to what liberals want (abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.).

As someone you might consider guilty of this, I'm compelled to share my position.

I don't think it's Religion itself, but rather the citing of one's Religious beliefs as primary reason for overt support to ban gay marriage and limit healthcare for women.

I see common ground where both sides would prefer less govt in their lives.

But I have a problem when one group attempts to impose their own religious views on another.  Passing laws that limit Gay rights or deny women's healthcare does this on a national scale.   

Equal rights for all, I say. 

Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #544 on: November 07, 2012, 01:37:17 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Oh, and for anyone who might think that intransigent Republicans won't be penalized in 2014, let me just point out that Prop 30 passed in California. Which is part "soak the rich" income tax hike, and part "sales tax increase for everyone".

Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #545 on: November 07, 2012, 01:41:49 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Oh, and for anyone who might think that intransigent Republicans won't be penalized in 2014, let me just point out that Prop 30 passed in California. Which is part "soak the rich" income tax hike, and part "sales tax increase for everyone".

Yes it would be quite puerile to believe that the intransigent republicans won't be penalized. 
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Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #546 on: November 07, 2012, 01:43:00 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Entitlement reform: That's how I'd fix America
I agree with a lot of you points here.

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If you receive public housing or food stamps, you must register for 5 hours of work per week at your local city or town hall.

A way of complying with the above requirement without having to do it would be to go to a college or training school and educate yourself in a profession and eventually finding a job.

This sounds like a good start to me.  Accountibility needs to be introdued if we are going to keep programs like these.

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Other ways to make money for the government:

Legalize a certain grown product and tax the heck out of it, like tobacco is.

End the war in Afghanistan and have all those in the military that have been fighting wars patrol our borders and secure our ports.

Now, please!

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Amnesty all non documented workers and have those workers tell the government where they work as a requirement of being amnestied in as a legal resident. Then make those companies start paying those people within the law and start taxing those payrolls and incomes. Set penalties against those companies that if they hire undocumented workers again, they will pay severe monetary penalties.
Only if the trade-off was a STRICT immigration policy, allowing no further illegal immigrants, that would be 100% enforced.

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Increase taxes on all people earning more than $100,000 per year. Nothing huge, say 5%

Increase capital gains tax 5%

Give tax breaks to companies that create and keep jobs in America. Give tax hikes to companies that keep their America incorporation but send jobs overseas.

Disagree with raising any income taxes or capital gains taxes.  Cutting loop-holes is the key.  Raising taxes on corporations that ship jobs over-seas is something I have long wanted though.  Scrap NAFTA and WTO as well.
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Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #547 on: November 07, 2012, 01:47:55 PM »

Offline Chris

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Thank you for your honesty. I do think, though, that there's a double standard in regard to "religion in politics." It seems to me that a lot of social liberals 1) say that religion should be left out of politics; 2) but they categorize only "traditional" religious folk (such as us Christians) as "religious"; 3) thus demonizing and alienating us, all the while never admitting that, in truth, everyone is "religious," because everyone has a belief system. This tactic is simply an attempt rid the public-policy arena of a particular belief system that is anathema to what liberals want (abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.).

As someone you might consider guilty of this, I'm compelled to share my position.

I don't think it's Religion itself, but rather the citing of one's Religious beliefs as primary reason for overt support to ban gay marriage and limit healthcare for women.

I see common ground where both sides would prefer less govt in their lives.

But I have a problem when one group attempts to impose their own religious views on another.  Passing laws that limit Gay rights or deny women's healthcare does this on a national scale.   

Equal rights for all, I say.

While I am all for equal rights for all, I think there is still a perception issue here between the two groups that you are demonstrating wonderfully.

You seem to be missing the unbreakable bond between religion and personal values that many religious people...and even some who may not be religious, but were brought up in a religious environment...have.

I am guessing you would say that your "personal value" is "equal rights for all".  That's great.  But you need to accept that for many people, the idea that marriage is only between a man and a woman is a strongly held personal value. 

Now, that personal value may come directly from religious teaching, just like your personal values come from some teaching, whether its religious, social, or otherwise.  But the fact remains, that it is a personal value for both sides, which is why it remains so contentious.

I do agree with others though, that the concensus on these issues does seem to have shifted pretty strongly over the last few years, for various reasons.  And I think that shift is eventually going to force a natural evolution of the political policies on the right.  But I think that is separate from the personal values of those who are against these social changes.

Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #548 on: November 07, 2012, 01:58:52 PM »

Offline IndeedProceed

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I also think a big wall standing between the two groups is that in America, Atheists are fundamentally a non-prophet organization. Most of the big religions are for-prophet entirely, so it is kind of a business model hurdle as well.

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Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #549 on: November 07, 2012, 02:05:04 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I also think a big wall standing between the two groups is that in America, Atheists are fundamentally a non-prophet organization. Most of the big religions are for-prophet entirely, so it is kind of a business model hurdle as well.

That's either a hilarious spelling error or a meh intentional pun.
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Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #550 on: November 07, 2012, 02:08:45 PM »

Offline IndeedProceed

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I also think a big wall standing between the two groups is that in America, Atheists are fundamentally a non-prophet organization. Most of the big religions are for-prophet entirely, so it is kind of a business model hurdle as well.

That's either a hilarious spelling error or a meh intentional pun.

I don't have to freakin impress you.

But if I did, I'd post this!

http://www.happyplace.com/19012/right-wing-poll-monitor-trolled-with-picture-from-the-wire

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Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #551 on: November 07, 2012, 02:09:31 PM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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That's great.  But you need to accept that for many people, the idea that marriage is only between a man and a woman is a strongly held personal value.

So were anti-miscegenation laws, on the books in 16 states until the Supreme Court overturned them in 1967. People opposing marriage equality today are similarly on the wrong side of history. We're at tide change. Wait and see.

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #552 on: November 07, 2012, 02:22:26 PM »

Offline Cman

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Most accurate national polls:
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1. PPP (D)*
 1. Daily Kos/SEIU/PPP*
 3. YouGov*
 4. Ipsos/Reuters*
 5. Purple Strategies
 6. NBC/WSJ
 6. CBS/NYT
 6. YouGov/Economist
 9. UPI/CVOTER
 10. IBD/TIPP
 11. Angus-Reid*
 12. ABC/WP*
 13. Pew Research*
 13. Hartford Courant/UConn*
 15. CNN/ORC
 15. Monmouth/SurveyUSA
 15. Politico/GWU/Battleground
 15. FOX News
 15. Washington Times/JZ Analytics
 15. Newsmax/JZ Analytics
 15. American Research Group
 15. Gravis Marketing
 23. Democracy Corps (D)*
 24. Rasmussen
 24. Gallup
 26. NPR
 27. National Journal*
 28. AP/GfK
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/11/the-most-accurate-polls-of-148876.html?hp=r8
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Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #553 on: November 07, 2012, 02:28:32 PM »

Offline Chris

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That's great.  But you need to accept that for many people, the idea that marriage is only between a man and a woman is a strongly held personal value.

So were anti-miscegenation laws, on the books in 16 states until the Supreme Court overturned them in 1967. People opposing marriage equality today are similarly on the wrong side of history. We're at tide change. Wait and see.

I think you are misunderstanding my point (and skipped an important part of my post).  I was just referring to the suggestion that "religion" shouldn't play a part in politics.  I was explaining why it is about more than religion, it is about personal values.

But as I said, the tides are changing, as Western culture is changing, and politics are going to have to change with it.

Re: Election day 2012
« Reply #554 on: November 07, 2012, 02:30:28 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Also, Paul Ryan easily retained his congressional seat.  Woohoo
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