Author Topic: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?  (Read 3776 times)

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Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2012, 08:30:50 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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Someone's goTta tell Westbrook to stop shooting so much. I mean game after game he is putting up more shots then the games best scorer and scoring champ. Last night he was 7 for 22 with 16 points while Durant was 11/19 with 24 points. When the games best scorer and scoring that efficiently you need to get him the ball. Until Westbrook learns he is a second banana to Durant I don't think OKC can win a title.

During the game is he deliberately not passing to KD?

Over the last few years has he averaged more shots than KD?

He is going to shoot a lot other wise KD would be taking 40 shots a game

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2012, 10:05:09 AM »

Online pearljammer10

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Someone's goTta tell Westbrook to stop shooting so much. I mean game after game he is putting up more shots then the games best scorer and scoring champ. Last night he was 7 for 22 with 16 points while Durant was 11/19 with 24 points. When the games best scorer and scoring that efficiently you need to get him the ball. Until Westbrook learns he is a second banana to Durant I don't think OKC can win a title.

During the game is he deliberately not passing to KD?

Over the last few years has he averaged more shots than KD?

He is going to shoot a lot other wise KD would be taking 40 shots a game

Sometimes it seems that way.

No, durant has always gotten more shots. until Last year when they both had 19 shots per game Durant still averaged almost 6 more points a game then Durant.

This year however Westbrook is averaging 5 more shots a game than Durant. Westbrook is averaging 2 points less then Durant while still taking five more shots. Durant is averaging 8 for 16 from the floor shooting 48% while Westbrook is shooting a putrid 7 out of 20! For just 37%.

You're going to try and say those extra 5 shots, which would probably smarter shots anyway, should stay with Westbrook and not go to the best scorer in the league? Especially when he is making more shots then Westbrook on 5 less attempts? Westbrook has terrible shot selection and until he starts making smarter decisions and realizing he is number two to Durant then OKC is not going to be as dangerous.

Heck, I would almost much rather have Durant take those 40 shots a game you speak of.

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2012, 10:08:02 AM »

Online pearljammer10

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Westbrook is just not the smarter player either

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2012, 10:14:49 AM »

Online Kane3387

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Oh and about the defensive lapses. Westbrook gambles a lot on defense. Sound familiar? I will say that sometimes he does it at inopportune times but he also comes close to averaging 2 steals a game. It's a trade off but

  The fact that Westbrook and Rondo both gamble at times in no way implies that Westbrook defends anywhere near as well as Rondo.
yeah I found that quite funny.  Westbrook is more in the Iverson mold of defense than the Rondo mold i.e. lots of steals, but not very strong defense on the whole.  Rondo gambles a lot, but is also a superb man to man defender.  He and Chris Paul are pretty similar in that regard and Westbrook is no where near either of them.

I think Rondo's Man to Man Defense has slipped the last few years. He is asked to do more overall then in the past and I think he conserves himself more on that end.

This is an article via ESPN Insider. It mentions Kobe Bryant, Aaron Afflalo, Joakim Noah, and Tayshaun Prince along with Rondo as the 5 most overrated Defenders in the NBA. Below is Rondo.

Quote
Rajon Rondo | Boston Celtics

Rondo
Rondo is known for his long arms and massive hands, both of which have helped him pile up 843 career steals going into the 2012-13 season (which ranks second only to Chris Paul over the same six-year period). While those steals-related stats are impressive, there's evidence that Rondo's overall defensive impact hasn't lived up to his All-Defense reputation for several years.

Rondo's career counterpart PER of 15.6 doesn't tell the tale of an elite on-ball defender, and plus/minus data show a decline in performance within the team concept as well. Over Rondo's first four NBA seasons, the Celtics were 2.2 points of defensive rating better with him on the floor, including an incredible 8.3-point difference during Rondo's rookie season of 2006-07. Since the start of the 2010-11 season, however, that number has been flipped; over the past two seasons, Boston was actually 2.1 points per 100 possessions better when Rondo wasn't in the game.

The emergence of backup point guard Avery Bradley -- who posted a young-Rondo-esque minus-4.4 on/off defensive differential last year -- is certainly a mitigating circumstance, but like Noah, Rondo's plus/minus numbers aren't impressive even after accounting for the "good defensive backup" factor. According to regularized adjusted plus/minus, Rondo ranked tied for No. 46 among guards last season (in terms of defense), a far fall from the second-place ranking he held early in his career.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8595253/nba-kobe-bryant-joakim-noah-overrated-defenders

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Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2012, 10:18:37 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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I still think they could be better if they got a PG good enough to shift him to SG. 


Someone that can help get him some easy shots as well as going a better job of making sure Durrant gets enough touches. 


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Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2012, 10:20:09 AM »

Offline Chris

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I still think they could be better if they got a PG good enough to shift him to SG. 


Someone that can help get him some easy shots as well as going a better job of making sure Durrant gets enough touches.

While I agree with this to a point, I just am not sure Westbrook is nearly as effective playing off the ball.  I just think he needs his own team.

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2012, 10:44:54 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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Someone's goTta tell Westbrook to stop shooting so much. I mean game after game he is putting up more shots then the games best scorer and scoring champ. Last night he was 7 for 22 with 16 points while Durant was 11/19 with 24 points. When the games best scorer and scoring that efficiently you need to get him the ball. Until Westbrook learns he is a second banana to Durant I don't think OKC can win a title.

During the game is he deliberately not passing to KD?

Over the last few years has he averaged more shots than KD?

He is going to shoot a lot other wise KD would be taking 40 shots a game

Sometimes it seems that way.

No, durant has always gotten more shots. until Last year when they both had 19 shots per game Durant still averaged almost 6 more points a game then Durant.

This year however Westbrook is averaging 5 more shots a game than Durant. Westbrook is averaging 2 points less then Durant while still taking five more shots. Durant is averaging 8 for 16 from the floor shooting 48% while Westbrook is shooting a putrid 7 out of 20! For just 37%.

You're going to try and say those extra 5 shots, which would probably smarter shots anyway, should stay with Westbrook and not go to the best scorer in the league? Especially when he is making more shots then Westbrook on 5 less attempts? Westbrook has terrible shot selection and until he starts making smarter decisions and realizing he is number two to Durant then OKC is not going to be as dangerous.

Heck, I would almost much rather have Durant take those 40 shots a game you speak of.

Basketball is so situational though that unless you analyze even single pass/play with KD and Westbrook on the court its hard tonjust conclude that Westbrook needs to take less shots or whatever.

Too many factors play into this, coaches calls, shot clock, defense on Westbrook, defense on KD, referees, opponents etc.

Especially with such a small sample size and playing with out a key member of your team from the past few years. It just seems a little pre mature to point this out now unless you have analyzed these games thoroughly and have concluded that Westbrook is looking off of Durant more, not putting an effort to get him shots, not running the correct plays.

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2012, 10:55:29 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Oh and about the defensive lapses. Westbrook gambles a lot on defense. Sound familiar? I will say that sometimes he does it at inopportune times but he also comes close to averaging 2 steals a game. It's a trade off but

  The fact that Westbrook and Rondo both gamble at times in no way implies that Westbrook defends anywhere near as well as Rondo.
yeah I found that quite funny.  Westbrook is more in the Iverson mold of defense than the Rondo mold i.e. lots of steals, but not very strong defense on the whole.  Rondo gambles a lot, but is also a superb man to man defender.  He and Chris Paul are pretty similar in that regard and Westbrook is no where near either of them.

I think Rondo's Man to Man Defense has slipped the last few years. He is asked to do more overall then in the past and I think he conserves himself more on that end.

This is an article via ESPN Insider. It mentions Kobe Bryant, Aaron Afflalo, Joakim Noah, and Tayshaun Prince along with Rondo as the 5 most overrated Defenders in the NBA. Below is Rondo.

Quote
Rajon Rondo | Boston Celtics

Rondo
Rondo is known for his long arms and massive hands, both of which have helped him pile up 843 career steals going into the 2012-13 season (which ranks second only to Chris Paul over the same six-year period). While those steals-related stats are impressive, there's evidence that Rondo's overall defensive impact hasn't lived up to his All-Defense reputation for several years.

Rondo's career counterpart PER of 15.6 doesn't tell the tale of an elite on-ball defender, and plus/minus data show a decline in performance within the team concept as well. Over Rondo's first four NBA seasons, the Celtics were 2.2 points of defensive rating better with him on the floor, including an incredible 8.3-point difference during Rondo's rookie season of 2006-07. Since the start of the 2010-11 season, however, that number has been flipped; over the past two seasons, Boston was actually 2.1 points per 100 possessions better when Rondo wasn't in the game.

The emergence of backup point guard Avery Bradley -- who posted a young-Rondo-esque minus-4.4 on/off defensive differential last year -- is certainly a mitigating circumstance, but like Noah, Rondo's plus/minus numbers aren't impressive even after accounting for the "good defensive backup" factor. According to regularized adjusted plus/minus, Rondo ranked tied for No. 46 among guards last season (in terms of defense), a far fall from the second-place ranking he held early in his career.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8595253/nba-kobe-bryant-joakim-noah-overrated-defenders

  Rondo's defensive numbers, whether you look at 82games or synergy sports, are certainly elite. I think that his +/- numbers last year were skewed quite a bit by the overall team performance. Rondo played big minutes when PP and (especially) KG were playing poorly and the team's defense was bad, and missed 10 or so games when the defense was good. When the team was playing poorly Rondo had a pretty good +/- defensively, but even though the defense was better with Rondo in it was much worse than the defense later in the season.

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2012, 11:43:56 AM »

Offline Brendan

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To the thread's question: I'd say yes.

I think they could get a better player to go with Harden (fit wise and quality wise). I think a SG like Harden gives you more options at PG.

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2012, 11:50:46 AM »

Offline snively

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Westbrook could be a lot more efficient if he cut down on some of those pull-up Js, especially from 3, and drove all the way to the basket.  He's taken almost as many 3s as free throws this year.
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Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2012, 12:44:37 PM »

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Trade Idea: Russell Westbrook for Marc Gasol and Mike Conley?

PG: Conley, Maynor
SG: Harden
SF: Durant, Thabo
PF: Ibaka
C:  M.Gasol, Collison

That would be a pretty nasty Oklahoma team. I'd love to see a Marc Gasol + Serge Ibaka combination up front. A nice pass first PG who can spread the floor for Harden and Durant to work with.

PG: Westbrook, Bayless
SG: (shooter), TA
SF: Gay
PF: Z-Bo, D.Arthur
C:  (new addition),

More holes than solutions for Memphis. Not sure it's worth it for them. Three shot-happy stars to build around. Big hole in the middle. Probably some problems making TA work with Westbrook, Z-Bo and Gay. Especially without Marc Gasol's high post offense.

I think it would be more of a retooling trade for Memphis. Discard Gasol for a superior long term building block in Westbrook. Use Westbrook and Gay as your foundation for the future. Trade Z-Bo to pickup another piece. Try to have a Championship Contender in 2-3 years time ... with the belief that this current group (with M.Gasol) isn't going to be good enough to give them a title-shot.

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2012, 12:54:49 PM »

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Would Portland have traded LaMarcus Aldridge for Russell Westbrook?

I think they might have prior to the draft but they seem very high on Damian Lillard and the prospect of Lillard and Aldridge together as a 1-2 punch. Not sure they'd make that deal in training camp.

Aldridge would have been fantastic alongside Ibaka, Durant and Harden.

Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2012, 01:34:13 PM »

Online D.o.s.

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Per Hardwood Paroxysm:

Russell Westbrook has never missed a game in his four-year NBA career. In those four years, he is the only player in the league to appear in every single game.

Russell Westbrook has improved his field goal percentage in every season he has been in the league. It’s gone from 39.8% to 41.8% to 44.2% to 45.7%.

Russell Westbrook has decreased his turnover percentage in every season he has been in the league. It’s gone from 17.6% to 16.6% to 15.9% to 14.2%.

In his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has scored 5,929 points, grabbed 1,480 rebounds, and dished out 2,119 assists. Only one other player in NBA history has accumulated those numbers through four seasons. His name is Oscar Robertson.

Through his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has averaged 19.0 points, 4.7 rebounds, and 6.8 assists per game. Only two other players in NBA history have averaged those numbers through four seasons. Their names are Chris Paul and Oscar Robertson.

Through his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has averaged 20.0 points, 5.0 rebounds and 7.2 assists per-36 minutes. Only one other player in NBA history has averaged those numbers through four seasons. His name is – you guessed it – Oscar Robertson.

People can rag on Russell Westbrook for not being a point guard all they want. I say we just #LetWestbrookBeWestbrook. After all, he’s already well on his way to having one of the best point guard careers of all time.
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Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2012, 01:36:55 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Per Hardwood Paroxysm:

Russell Westbrook has never missed a game in his four-year NBA career. In those four years, he is the only player in the league to appear in every single game.

Russell Westbrook has improved his field goal percentage in every season he has been in the league. It’s gone from 39.8% to 41.8% to 44.2% to 45.7%.

Russell Westbrook has decreased his turnover percentage in every season he has been in the league. It’s gone from 17.6% to 16.6% to 15.9% to 14.2%.

In his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has scored 5,929 points, grabbed 1,480 rebounds, and dished out 2,119 assists. Only one other player in NBA history has accumulated those numbers through four seasons. His name is Oscar Robertson.

Through his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has averaged 19.0 points, 4.7 rebounds, and 6.8 assists per game. Only two other players in NBA history have averaged those numbers through four seasons. Their names are Chris Paul and Oscar Robertson.

Through his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has averaged 20.0 points, 5.0 rebounds and 7.2 assists per-36 minutes. Only one other player in NBA history has averaged those numbers through four seasons. His name is – you guessed it – Oscar Robertson.

People can rag on Russell Westbrook for not being a point guard all they want. I say we just #LetWestbrookBeWestbrook. After all, he’s already well on his way to having one of the best point guard careers of all time.

I don't think that Russell WEstbrook is as historically good as those numbers indicate. The rule changes, especially hand-check rule changes, are going to skew numbers towards perimeter slashers and scorers until (if its ever) adjusted.

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Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2012, 01:42:40 PM »

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That's probably true.

I think Westbrook's battling a zero-sum game on the thunder, though, since everyone in the basketball world has been riding Durant's wave since he showed up on our radar screens at the college level.

You can't blame Saint Kevin for anything, so any problems with the Thunder are falling, will continue to fall, and will forever fall square on Westbrook's head.

"But he can pass the ball to Durant!"

Because it's not like the other team doesn't know that Durant is a beast of a scorer, or anything. The thunder are operating at the best level when Westbrook is going off, which allows Durant to get better looks.

You swap him out with Harden, and that doesn't work as well, because Harden's a great PnR guy, not a nearly-unstoppable explosive slasher.

Just sayin'.
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