Author Topic: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?  (Read 5022 times)

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Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2012, 04:04:46 PM »

Offline j804

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Lee is the best two way player of the bunch.  After that, I think it's a toss-up between Terry and Barbosa.  I don't think it's a given that Bradley starts over any of those three.  If he has trade value, I think it might make sense to include him in a package for a legit big.

If all these guys remain healthy, there's no sense having 4 shooting guards split 52 minutes in the playoffs.  We should trade one as part of a huge package for a Josh Smith or Big Al type.

AB displaced Ray as a starter - if he comes back healthy, I don't think he'll have too many problems winning a spot in the rotation.

Barbosa is by far the most likely to get bench duty, barring a trade.
to be fair though Allen wasn't healthy and was really beat up
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Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2012, 04:15:59 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Lee is the best two way player of the bunch.  After that, I think it's a toss-up between Terry and Barbosa.  I don't think it's a given that Bradley starts over any of those three.  If he has trade value, I think it might make sense to include him in a package for a legit big.

If all these guys remain healthy, there's no sense having 4 shooting guards split 52 minutes in the playoffs.  We should trade one as part of a huge package for a Josh Smith or Big Al type.

AB displaced Ray as a starter - if he comes back healthy, I don't think he'll have too many problems winning a spot in the rotation.

Barbosa is by far the most likely to get bench duty, barring a trade.
to be fair though Allen wasn't healthy and was really beat up

Avery got the job because he was better than Ray Allen, not because Ray Allen was banged up. He brought more to the team playing alongside Rondo.

Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2012, 04:19:50 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Lee is the best two way player of the bunch.  After that, I think it's a toss-up between Terry and Barbosa.  I don't think it's a given that Bradley starts over any of those three.  If he has trade value, I think it might make sense to include him in a package for a legit big.

If all these guys remain healthy, there's no sense having 4 shooting guards split 52 minutes in the playoffs.  We should trade one as part of a huge package for a Josh Smith or Big Al type.

AB displaced Ray as a starter - if he comes back healthy, I don't think he'll have too many problems winning a spot in the rotation.

Barbosa is by far the most likely to get bench duty, barring a trade.
to be fair though Allen wasn't healthy and was really beat up

Avery got the job because he was better than Ray Allen, not because Ray Allen was banged up. He brought more to the team playing alongside Rondo.
At the moment I think Courtney Lee is better than Bradley.  I hope I'm wrong, but I see Lee is a vastly superior scorer and probably on the same level defensively.  I personally feel like Bradley's defense is overhyped.  People are calling him the best defender in the league after what amounts to basically a month of aggressive play as a starter.  He needs to do it for more than a month... a handful of games isn't enough of a sample size to see how he deals with larger guards.  I think Lee is the better player.  He's bigger, he's an excellent defender and he's a more reliable scorer.  Bradley's young.  He's coming off a huge season averaging 7 points and .7 steals.  Maybe he's got huge potential... but maybe if his stock is high around the league we should flip him before he gets exposed.

Bradley had that one game (was it against Toronto?) where all the starters sat out.  He impressed the heck out of me in that game creating his own shot.  His defense is clearly very good (he's like a tiny Tony Allen).  But one of my major theories about the NBA is that the element of surprise is huge.  People point to that one game against Miami where Wade (who probably was caught off guard by the young unknown) was limited to 20 points (while Wade was injured, btw) as if it's the sign that Bradley can "shut down" Wade.   But there was a regular season game against Atlanta where Joe JOhnson abused Bradley with his size.  I'm just saying... I want to see whether Bradley can sustain that overly aggressive defense long-term.  And all signs point to him being a streaky shooter.  I'm not a Bradley hater... I'm just trying to temper my enthusiasm. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 04:29:01 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2012, 04:33:25 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Lee is the best two way player of the bunch.  After that, I think it's a toss-up between Terry and Barbosa.  I don't think it's a given that Bradley starts over any of those three.  If he has trade value, I think it might make sense to include him in a package for a legit big.

If all these guys remain healthy, there's no sense having 4 shooting guards split 52 minutes in the playoffs.  We should trade one as part of a huge package for a Josh Smith or Big Al type.

AB displaced Ray as a starter - if he comes back healthy, I don't think he'll have too many problems winning a spot in the rotation.

Barbosa is by far the most likely to get bench duty, barring a trade.
to be fair though Allen wasn't healthy and was really beat up

Avery got the job because he was better than Ray Allen, not because Ray Allen was banged up. He brought more to the team playing alongside Rondo.
At the moment I think Courtney Lee is better than Bradley.  I hope I'm wrong, but I see Lee is a vastly superior scorer and probably on the same level defensively.  I personally feel like Bradley's defense is overhyped.  People are calling him the best defender in the league after what amounts to basically a month of aggressive play as a starter.  He needs to do it for more than a month... a handful of games isn't enough of a sample size to see how he deals with larger guards.  I think Lee is the better player.  He's bigger, he's an excellent defender and he's a more reliable scorer.  Bradley's young.  He's coming off a huge season averaging 7 points and .7 steals.  Maybe he's got huge potential... but maybe if his stock is high around the league we should flip him before he gets exposed.

Bradley had that one game (was it against Toronto?) where all the starters sat out.  He impressed the heck out of me in that game creating his own shot.  His defense is clearly very good (he's like a tiny Tony Allen).  But one of my major theories about the NBA is that the element of surprise is huge.  People point to that one game against Miami where Wade (who probably was caught off guard by the young unknown) was limited to 20 points (while Wade was injured, btw) as if it's the sign that Bradley can "shut down" Wade.   But there was a regular season game against Atlanta where Joe JOhnson abused Bradley with his size.  I'm just saying... I want to see whether Bradley can sustain that overly aggressive defense long-term.  And all signs point to him being a streaky shooter.  I'm not a Bradley hater... I'm just trying to temper my enthusiasm.

Hmm.  Bradley coming off the bench as a combo guard ain't bad if you ask me.  But I might look at what a Bradley/Bass combo could bring in trade (Milsap?).

Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2012, 06:05:14 PM »

Offline arambone

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last 2 years bradley got to study under ray allen. Now he gets to study jason terry and his awesome moves. Perfect education for the natural defensive phenom bradley.

I want to see bradley get some situational or extended opportunities to be a selfish shoot first point guard, with sully and green and darko setting picks for bradley and crashing the boards, and terry/lee sitting open at the 3 pt line. Let bradley show what he's got. That superior quickness and speed works not just on defense, ya know.

Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2012, 07:14:04 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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At the moment I think Courtney Lee is better than Bradley.  I hope I'm wrong, but I see Lee is a vastly superior scorer and probably on the same level defensively. 

While I agree that folks should tone down the hype on Bradley and wait to see how good of a player he is coming back from his surgery, I'm struggling to see from where you are drawing the conclusion that Lee "is a vastly superior scorer".

Bradley played 1368 minutes last year and averaged 12.7 points per 36 minutes.   Yes, he averaged 16.5 per 36 in April (almost 14per for Mar/April combined), but let's include the whole season.  His shooting percentages were 49.8%/40.7%/79.5%.  He averaged 10.6 FGAs and 2.1 FTAs per 36 minutes.

Lee played 1757 minutes last year and averaged 13.5 points per 36 minutes.  His shooting percentages were 43.3%/40.1%/82.6%.  He averaged 11.9 FGA and 1.8 FTA per 36 minutes.

Lee's numbers last year were similar to his career numbers, which have been pretty rock steady.

I'm not going to argue that Bradley is or isn't a better scorer than Lee.  But I see absolutely NO evidence that Lee is a "vastly superior scorer" than Bradley.

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Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2012, 09:02:14 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Lee is the best two way player of the bunch.  After that, I think it's a toss-up between Terry and Barbosa.  I don't think it's a given that Bradley starts over any of those three.  If he has trade value, I think it might make sense to include him in a package for a legit big.

If all these guys remain healthy, there's no sense having 4 shooting guards split 52 minutes in the playoffs.  We should trade one as part of a huge package for a Josh Smith or Big Al type.

I don't think that Al Jefferson and Josh Smith are the same "type" at all.  While I think Smith would be a good fit on the Celtics, I worry about giving up too much in a trade for a guy who is most likely going to command bigger bucks than we may be prepared to pay this off-season. 

Also, if Danny is looking to move a guard, I think it makes more sense to move Lee as he probably has more value due to the size of his contract and his experience as a pro.  This doesn't mean that I'm convinced that we need to make a move.  Just saying that if we do, I'd rather trade Lee than Bradley.
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Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2012, 09:10:04 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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At the moment I think Courtney Lee is better than Bradley.  I hope I'm wrong, but I see Lee is a vastly superior scorer and probably on the same level defensively. 

While I agree that folks should tone down the hype on Bradley and wait to see how good of a player he is coming back from his surgery, I'm struggling to see from where you are drawing the conclusion that Lee "is a vastly superior scorer".

Bradley played 1368 minutes last year and averaged 12.7 points per 36 minutes.   Yes, he averaged 16.5 per 36 in April (almost 14per for Mar/April combined), but let's include the whole season.  His shooting percentages were 49.8%/40.7%/79.5%.  He averaged 10.6 FGAs and 2.1 FTAs per 36 minutes.

Lee played 1757 minutes last year and averaged 13.5 points per 36 minutes.  His shooting percentages were 43.3%/40.1%/82.6%.  He averaged 11.9 FGA and 1.8 FTA per 36 minutes.

Lee's numbers last year were similar to his career numbers, which have been pretty rock steady.

I'm not going to argue that Bradley is or isn't a better scorer than Lee.  But I see absolutely NO evidence that Lee is a "vastly superior scorer" than Bradley.
Lee is a more proven jump shooter, we have years of play to show that he can hit NBA 3s at a very good clip. Bradley has a much smaller sample size of accuracy from the three point line.

Bradley's biggest offensive value was all the high percentage looks he created with his cuts and running the floor though, Lee so far has provided similar hoops in the pre-season and first game.

If Bradley recaptures his level of play from last year he should leave only a few minutes for Lee, but he only played great for half a season so I'm very happy with Lee as an option.

Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2012, 09:11:31 PM »

Offline snively

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At the moment I think Courtney Lee is better than Bradley.  I hope I'm wrong, but I see Lee is a vastly superior scorer and probably on the same level defensively. 

While I agree that folks should tone down the hype on Bradley and wait to see how good of a player he is coming back from his surgery, I'm struggling to see from where you are drawing the conclusion that Lee "is a vastly superior scorer".

Bradley played 1368 minutes last year and averaged 12.7 points per 36 minutes.   Yes, he averaged 16.5 per 36 in April (almost 14per for Mar/April combined), but let's include the whole season.  His shooting percentages were 49.8%/40.7%/79.5%.  He averaged 10.6 FGAs and 2.1 FTAs per 36 minutes.

Lee played 1757 minutes last year and averaged 13.5 points per 36 minutes.  His shooting percentages were 43.3%/40.1%/82.6%.  He averaged 11.9 FGA and 1.8 FTA per 36 minutes.

Lee's numbers last year were similar to his career numbers, which have been pretty rock steady.

I'm not going to argue that Bradley is or isn't a better scorer than Lee.  But I see absolutely NO evidence that Lee is a "vastly superior scorer" than Bradley.

Agreed.  LarBrd33 is downplaying Bradley's abilities far more than reasonable caution about small sample size would justify.
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Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 09:15:02 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I'm very impressed with C. Lee ,  he fits in nicely with the C's m becomming a fav or mine already.   His best ball is ahead of him yet.


Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2012, 09:29:51 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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At the moment I think Courtney Lee is better than Bradley.  I hope I'm wrong, but I see Lee is a vastly superior scorer and probably on the same level defensively. 

While I agree that folks should tone down the hype on Bradley and wait to see how good of a player he is coming back from his surgery, I'm struggling to see from where you are drawing the conclusion that Lee "is a vastly superior scorer".

Bradley played 1368 minutes last year and averaged 12.7 points per 36 minutes.   Yes, he averaged 16.5 per 36 in April (almost 14per for Mar/April combined), but let's include the whole season.  His shooting percentages were 49.8%/40.7%/79.5%.  He averaged 10.6 FGAs and 2.1 FTAs per 36 minutes.

Lee played 1757 minutes last year and averaged 13.5 points per 36 minutes.  His shooting percentages were 43.3%/40.1%/82.6%.  He averaged 11.9 FGA and 1.8 FTA per 36 minutes.

Lee's numbers last year were similar to his career numbers, which have been pretty rock steady.

I'm not going to argue that Bradley is or isn't a better scorer than Lee.  But I see absolutely NO evidence that Lee is a "vastly superior scorer" than Bradley.

Agreed.  LarBrd33 is downplaying Bradley's abilities far more than reasonable caution about small sample size would justify.
He had a month of ridiculous shooting in April (52% FG, 55% from three and 78% from the line)... his percentages in High school (38% from three), College (43% FG, 37% 3P, 54% FT), his rookie season (34% FG, 0% 3P, 50% FT)  and the playoffs (37% FG, 23% 3P, 67% FT) aren't very impressive.  I say there's more evidence to suggest he's a bad shooter than a good one.

I don't think there's any doubt that Lee is a more polished offensive player and a better shooter.  On defense, Lee is already making me a fan.

Bradley might be the real deal, but it's important to remember it was a lockout shortened season and his huge run happened in the tail of the season when guys like Kevin Seraphin look like superstars.  I've said it before... I'm no more "sold" on Avery Bradley than I am on Kevin Seraphin (averaged 16 points, 7 boards, and 1.7 blocks in April).  The element of surprise matters.  I think Bradley can be good... but I wouldn't pass up the chance to add an established star like Smith if all we had to get rid of was Bradley and change.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 09:42:02 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 09:33:13 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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last 2 years bradley got to study under ray allen. Now he gets to study jason terry and his awesome moves. Perfect education for the natural defensive phenom bradley.

I want to see bradley get some situational or extended opportunities to be a selfish shoot first point guard, with sully and green and darko setting picks for bradley and crashing the boards, and terry/lee sitting open at the 3 pt line. Let bradley show what he's got. That superior quickness and speed works not just on defense, ya know.

It's a good point, because aside from Jason Terry... there's not very many 6'2 180 pound shooting guards who have been successful in this league.  Smart move by the celtics to bring him in to mentor Bradley.

Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 10:38:28 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I seriously question the idea of Lee is a 'vastly superior' scorer than Bradley...I haven't seen anything thus far to indicate that.

Looking at Lee's offensive skill set: 
- He is a capable passer (in that he can connect on a pass without turning it over) but not a playmaker
- He shoots at an excellent rate on corner three's, but an average or below average rate on above break three's
- He's a solid (but not exceptional) midrange shooter
- He's capable of (but not fantastic at) creating his own shot
- He cut's well without the ball
- He's a decent (but not great) ball handler

All of the above is pretty much Avery Bradley in a nutshell. You can argue that Lee is a more polished version of Avery Bradley on offense, but 'vastly superior'?  I don't think that is accurate at all.

Also small sample size or not is irrelevant - you can't just make up numbers out of thin air, so you need to go off the  strongest sample size you have, and right now for Bradley that is last season. 

Defensively though Bradley is FAR better.  The impression I get so far is that Courtney Lee is quick enough to stick with opposing players and who has a pretty good eye for the ball.  Bradley on the other hand is an Elite defensive player who gets right up in the face of opposing players, gets in their heads, takes them completely out of their game, forces errors and can completely dominate a game with his defensive pressure.

There are few players who you actually grab the spotlight when they are playing defense - when Bradley is defending somebody full court all of the attention is on him.

IMHO as long as Bradley's defense is at the same level it was at last season (and if I were the coach), he would be starting the instant he returns.  First reason is his defensive pressure, second reason is that he already has good chemistry with the starting lineup and he's a perfect fit within that group.

Lee actually makes for a fantastic second tier SG because he can come off the bench and give Boston an advantage against most teams on both sides of the floor.  He's good enough defensively to shut down second tier SGs, and he is good enough offensively that second tier SGs would have problems defending him.

To me the difficult decision is between Terry and Barbosa, and I believe Terry will usually get the edge there because of:
1. His championship experience
2. His consistent shooting (Barbosa has a reputation for being a streak shooter)
3. His ability to score in the clutch and close out games

Barbosa had me seriously thinking twice about that yesterday, but at the end of the day it was one game - Terry played solid (if not great) and Barbosa was simply beasting.  If Barbosa does what he did yesterday consistently then it's going to be very difficult to deny him playing time - he pretty much single handedly put us back in that game.

With Bradley back though I honestly feel like Lee is the most expendable...simply because he is solid (like Bradley) but doesn't really excel at anything.  I see him helping you through games, but I don't see him winning you games.  Bradley (on Defense), Terry and Barbosa (on offense) all have the ability to dominate opposing teams in spurts, and that's what often wins games. 

Completely unrelated, but Bass was phenomenal yesterday.  I don't expect that we will see that type of shooting efficiency and rebounding aggression from him every day, but if we do I will forever eat my words about him being average.  Maybe the extra competition from Sully has lit a firecracker under his behind!

Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2012, 11:27:22 PM »

Offline OmarSekou

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Why not play 5 guards? Just push the tempo more. Start Bradley and tell him to press the opposing PG from the get go. When he tires out throw in another warm body.

It seems like we have a pretty good problem here. All 5 guys are quality NBA players. We should find a way to make sure they all see the court. If that can't be done we should trade whoever has the most value and get back a quality big.
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Re: Once Bradley comes back, how does this guard rotation play out?
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2012, 11:34:38 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Once Bradley comes back, Rondo can pick a game to go flagrant 2 against Wade and not put the team in a horrible spot if he has to miss a game or two.
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