Harden getting Max dollars, Is what's wrong with the NBA.

[indeedproceed]

They (Houston) won't have cap space any time soon

This is maybe the most misunderstood thing about this trade. Houston will have room for a max-level player next summer.

They'll also have Royce White, Terrance Jones, Parsons, Donuts Motiejunas, Patrick Patterson, Marcus Morris, plus all their own picks.

PLus, if they package all their expiring contracts, they have right around 7 million dollars in expiring money to send out in a potential trade, on top of their existing 3 million cap room this year.

[guava_wrench]

James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.

I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3.  Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there.  To me he's top 2.

I couldn't disagree with the OP more.  Harden is very deserving of the contract.  I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage.  He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.

He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player.  Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move.  I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender.  If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him.  I just don't know what Houston is doing.

I don't disagree that he doesn't make them a title contender but let's be real.  LeBron James wasn't enough to get to the title alone.  I don't see this as a knock on Harden but just the reality of what it takes to compete in the NBA.

We have seen now that you need probably three star players to contend for a title now.

Houston has said openly they are looking for another star caliber player to add to Harden.  The guy Harden reminds me of is Manu Ginobili (with a higher ceiling, considering his age) and of course Manu was part of a three man core that contended for titles, and he wasn't the team's best player either. 

I think Harden could perhaps be the best player on a title team given his age right now, but even if he's not that isn't a knock to me.  I don't think they gave up too much or are paying him too much either.

What he does do as well is make Houston a more attractive landing spot for a big free agent.

Of course you need more than 1 player, but there is no one in the world that thought Lebron James couldn't win a title as his teams best player.  He didn't have a strong enough supporting cast in Cleveland, but everyone knew if he had a stronger supporting cast he could have. 

James Harden isn't that guy.  His skill set isn't good enough to win a title as his teams best player and I don't think it ever will be (I mean I suppose he could be in a Detroit Pistons type situation, but those are really really rare titles).  And it isn't like he is joining a team that has some other "star" players on it.  Houston is now good enough to make the playoffs (or just miss them), but not near good enough to win a title.  They won't have cap space any time soon, and gave up a lot of their real good trade chips, all to hit mediocrity.  It was a stupid trade for Houston.

This is such an arbitrary critique. I bet you same the said about Dirk at one point, yet Dirk won as the best player (by far) on the Mavs. Detroit won, arguably without any player at the level that we can expect Harden to reach. Detroit was a team of guys who only made all star games because of Detroit's record.

I see no substance to your argument since it deals complete in ill-defined 'intangibles' that tend to be nothing more than begging the question.

And why wouldn't they have cap space? What math are you using? Lin's contract is probably less than the MLE for this year and next. Asik just barely gets 8 figures. And even if they didn't have cap space, we didn't have cap space when we acquired Allen and KG. Pierce, like Dirk, would seem to fit the same characterization you provide for Harden.

[Moranis]

James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.

I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3.  Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there.  To me he's top 2.

I couldn't disagree with the OP more.  Harden is very deserving of the contract.  I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage.  He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.

He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player.  Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move.  I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender.  If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him.  I just don't know what Houston is doing.

I don't disagree that he doesn't make them a title contender but let's be real.  LeBron James wasn't enough to get to the title alone.  I don't see this as a knock on Harden but just the reality of what it takes to compete in the NBA.

We have seen now that you need probably three star players to contend for a title now.

Houston has said openly they are looking for another star caliber player to add to Harden.  The guy Harden reminds me of is Manu Ginobili (with a higher ceiling, considering his age) and of course Manu was part of a three man core that contended for titles, and he wasn't the team's best player either. 

I think Harden could perhaps be the best player on a title team given his age right now, but even if he's not that isn't a knock to me.  I don't think they gave up too much or are paying him too much either.

What he does do as well is make Houston a more attractive landing spot for a big free agent.

Of course you need more than 1 player, but there is no one in the world that thought Lebron James couldn't win a title as his teams best player.  He didn't have a strong enough supporting cast in Cleveland, but everyone knew if he had a stronger supporting cast he could have. 

James Harden isn't that guy.  His skill set isn't good enough to win a title as his teams best player and I don't think it ever will be (I mean I suppose he could be in a Detroit Pistons type situation, but those are really really rare titles).  And it isn't like he is joining a team that has some other "star" players on it.  Houston is now good enough to make the playoffs (or just miss them), but not near good enough to win a title.  They won't have cap space any time soon, and gave up a lot of their real good trade chips, all to hit mediocrity.  It was a stupid trade for Houston.

This is such an arbitrary critique. I bet you same the said about Dirk at one point, yet Dirk won as the best player (by far) on the Mavs. Detroit won, arguably without any player at the level that we can expect Harden to reach. Detroit was a team of guys who only made all star games because of Detroit's record.

I see no substance to your argument since it deals complete in ill-defined 'intangibles' that tend to be nothing more than begging the question.

And why wouldn't they have cap space? What math are you using? Lin's contract is probably less than the MLE for this year and next. Asik just barely gets 8 figures. And even if they didn't have cap space, we didn't have cap space when we acquired Allen and KG. Pierce, like Dirk, would seem to fit the same characterization you provide for Harden.

Dirk has always had the it factor.  So has Pierce.  I have seen nothing from Harden that leads me to believe he is even close to their level (or that he will get there).  He may prove me wrong, but I just don't see it.  He is a good player, but I would be surprised if anyone ever called him great.  Dirk and Pierce were always thought of as great players. 

The Pistons are a blip on the radar.  Those type of teams historically don't even compete for championship nonetheless win them, but I clearly mentioned that as a possible way where a good player like Harden could be his teams best player and win a title.  If you are planning on that strategy as a team though, you are setting yourself up to fail.

[Moranis]

They (Houston) won't have cap space any time soon

This is maybe the most misunderstood thing about this trade. Houston will have room for a max-level player next summer.

They'll also have Royce White, Terrance Jones, Parsons, Donuts Motiejunas, Patrick Patterson, Marcus Morris, plus all their own picks.

PLus, if they package all their expiring contracts, they have right around 7 million dollars in expiring money to send out in a potential trade, on top of their existing 3 million cap room this year.

Yeah, I looked at Shamsports and they over calculated Lin and Asik for next year by about 6 million, which would have put Houston more in the low 50's which isn't enough for a max player (which is what I was meaning to say i.e. Houston won't have the cap space to sign a "star" for awhile).  Take that 6 million out and they will.  Now if they can sign Paul or Howard next summer, then the trade will definitely be worth it, but that is a gigantic question mark.

[moiso]

James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.

I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3.  Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there.  To me he's top 2.

I couldn't disagree with the OP more.  Harden is very deserving of the contract.  I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage.  He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.

He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player.  Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move.  I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender.  If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him.  I just don't know what Houston is doing.

I don't disagree that he doesn't make them a title contender but let's be real.  LeBron James wasn't enough to get to the title alone.  I don't see this as a knock on Harden but just the reality of what it takes to compete in the NBA.

We have seen now that you need probably three star players to contend for a title now.

Houston has said openly they are looking for another star caliber player to add to Harden.  The guy Harden reminds me of is Manu Ginobili (with a higher ceiling, considering his age) and of course Manu was part of a three man core that contended for titles, and he wasn't the team's best player either. 

I think Harden could perhaps be the best player on a title team given his age right now, but even if he's not that isn't a knock to me.  I don't think they gave up too much or are paying him too much either.

What he does do as well is make Houston a more attractive landing spot for a big free agent.

Of course you need more than 1 player, but there is no one in the world that thought Lebron James couldn't win a title as his teams best player.  He didn't have a strong enough supporting cast in Cleveland, but everyone knew if he had a stronger supporting cast he could have. 

James Harden isn't that guy.  His skill set isn't good enough to win a title as his teams best player and I don't think it ever will be (I mean I suppose he could be in a Detroit Pistons type situation, but those are really really rare titles).  And it isn't like he is joining a team that has some other "star" players on it.  Houston is now good enough to make the playoffs (or just miss them), but not near good enough to win a title.  They won't have cap space any time soon, and gave up a lot of their real good trade chips, all to hit mediocrity.  It was a stupid trade for Houston.

This is such an arbitrary critique. I bet you same the said about Dirk at one point, yet Dirk won as the best player (by far) on the Mavs. Detroit won, arguably without any player at the level that we can expect Harden to reach. Detroit was a team of guys who only made all star games because of Detroit's record.

I see no substance to your argument since it deals complete in ill-defined 'intangibles' that tend to be nothing more than begging the question.

And why wouldn't they have cap space? What math are you using? Lin's contract is probably less than the MLE for this year and next. Asik just barely gets 8 figures. And even if they didn't have cap space, we didn't have cap space when we acquired Allen and KG. Pierce, like Dirk, would seem to fit the same characterization you provide for Harden.

Dirk has always had the it factor.  So has Pierce.  I have seen nothing from Harden that leads me to believe he is even close to their level (or that he will get there).  He may prove me wrong, but I just don't see it.  He is a good player, but I would be surprised if anyone ever called him great.  Dirk and Pierce were always thought of as great players. 

The Pistons are a blip on the radar.  Those type of teams historically don't even compete for championship nonetheless win them, but I clearly mentioned that as a possible way where a good player like Harden could be his teams best player and win a title.  If you are planning on that strategy as a team though, you are setting yourself up to fail.

When Dirk averaged 8 points per game in his first year he had the it factor and you considered him great?  I think it took a few years.  Harden is a pretty good player already and has done nothing but improve since he entered the league.

[guava_wrench]

Dirk has always had the it factor.  So has Pierce.  I have seen nothing from Harden that leads me to believe he is even close to their level (or that he will get there).  He may prove me wrong, but I just don't see it.  He is a good player, but I would be surprised if anyone ever called him great.  Dirk and Pierce were always thought of as great players. 

The Pistons are a blip on the radar.  Those type of teams historically don't even compete for championship nonetheless win them, but I clearly mentioned that as a possible way where a good player like Harden could be his teams best player and win a title.  If you are planning on that strategy as a team though, you are setting yourself up to fail.

So you are making an argument that is basically "I don't see it"? I trust Morey more. So, who are on your list of players how have the 'it factor'? Who are all the players in the league teams can build around?

Harden suffered from his role in OKC, much like how Ginobili suffered from being 6th man. Ginobili needed to start more before his greatness was fully recognized by many, though basketball people were fully aware of his skill set. Ginobili's individual legacy probably suffered through less all star appearances and all NBA teams due to his 6th man role.

The best thing Harden could do for his legacy was get out of OKC where he was with 2 guys who don't do much on offense besides score (though Durant is probably the best in the league at doing that). That left him to be the 'fill in the gaps' complimentary guy. Now that an offense is centered around him, he can show all he brings to the table, which is quite a lot. Coaches will build an offense that is tailored to getting the most out of him.

This is a good year for Harden to move if we want to compare him to Pierce. Pierce was also 23 when he started averaging mid-20 PPG.

[Who]

What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?

Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.

[Moranis]

What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?

Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.

For me, I would save the pieces to get a #1, not a #2.  Houston just traded a solid veteran with an expiring contract, a first round pick last year, two first round picks this year, and a high second round pick this year for a #2 but who is his teams best player (at the moment).  Too much to give up for not enough upside for me. 

[Kane3387]

His stat line the other night looked pretty Max Dollarish to me..

[Rondo2287]

What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?

Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.

For me, I would save the pieces to get a #1, not a #2.  Houston just traded a solid veteran with an expiring contract, a first round pick last year, two first round picks this year, and a high second round pick this year for a #2 but who is his teams best player (at the moment).  Too much to give up for not enough upside for me.

But Harden himself is still only 23, do you think he has maxed out his own potential at this point?

[Who]

What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?

Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.

For me, I would save the pieces to get a #1, not a #2.  Houston just traded a solid veteran with an expiring contract, a first round pick last year, two first round picks this year, and a high second round pick this year for a #2 but who is his teams best player (at the moment).  Too much to give up for not enough upside for me.

What if Harden is the piece they need to land that #1 guy?

Either as a trade asset to land that #1 guy (like Andrew Bynum for Dwight Howard) or as a secondary star to convince that #1 guy that if he joins (via free agency or trade), he'll have a chance to win a Championship.

Nothing but upside here for me for Houston.

[guava_wrench]

What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?

Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.

Pippen would be the poster boy for this, considering his lack of success without Jordan despite being such a vital part of the Bulls' championship teams.

The whole #1 option idea is probably irrelevant since winning isn't just about scorers. KG hasn't led us in scoring, but his impact has been the greatest due to our reliance on defense. Someone like Stockton was clearly worthy of a max deal, but would never be a team's leading scorer because his contributions were more pronounced through running the offense and defending.

Still, if Harden is going to average high 20s in PPG, he will probably be the #1 offensive option, even if paired with another top player unless it is Lebron, Durant, or CP3 (though Lebron or CP3 would probably get him an open shot at the buzzer if that was the best play). Actually, my comment is premature. Harden still has to prove himself as the guy in Houston. But is it absurd for people to close the book on him already.

[Donoghus]

What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?

Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.

For me, I would save the pieces to get a #1, not a #2.  Houston just traded a solid veteran with an expiring contract, a first round pick last year, two first round picks this year, and a high second round pick this year for a #2 but who is his teams best player (at the moment).  Too much to give up for not enough upside for me.

What if Harden is the piece they need to land that #1 guy?

Either as a trade asset to land that #1 guy (like Andrew Bynum for Dwight Howard) or as a secondary star to convince that #1 guy that if he joins (via free agency or trade), he'll have a chance to win a Championship.

Nothing but upside here for me for Houston.

Pretty much how I see it.   I liked this trade a lot for Houston.

[guava_wrench]

More of the same from Harden tonight.

[PhoSita]

On that Rockets team, Harden should get 15-25 shots a night, and he could easily be top 5 in the league in scoring.  I can't imagine he'll be any lower than top 10.