Celtics (1-2) at Sixers (1-1) 10/15

[chambers]

The only thing that is blatantly obvious is that Jamar Smith is the only one from this lot who can guard the PG position.

Wait, I lied, it's also blatantly obvious that the kids from the overreaction brigade are on a rampage around the forum these days

Oh really?

Perhaps I'm not seeing right.

Please tell me what exactly it is about Jamar Smith's 1:2 assist-to-turnover ratio, his 1:4 steal-to-turnover ratio, his 18% FG shooting that raises your eyebrow?

He is utterly horrible. His passable defensive pressure (which still no match or Dooling's last season) doesn't even come close to making up for the massive liability he is in every other possible facet of the game.

Also that's just the statistical stuff - that's not even considering the level of composure (or lack thereof) he plays with or his complete inability to run a play.

The guy is a scoring PG who has so far been the worst scorer on our team...yes even Darko is shooting at a higher percentage.  What more do you want me to say?

His efficiency is MINUS - i.e. BELOW ZERO. Please find me a Celtics player from last season (or any other player on our current preseason roster) who had a negative efficiency rating. I'll be waiting...

Did you watch Avery Bradley play in his first 3 pre season games? He was horrid.
I'm not saying Jamar Smith is the next Iverson-in fact I didn't think he'd make the team, but you need to give all these kids a good 3-4 months before writing them off completely.
You're talking about negative efficiency ratings- your sample size is too small to conclude anything at the moment.
Give him another 10 games at least, it's been 4 games so far.

[crimson_stallion]

I agree with the Armageddon theory.

Lets be honest - one of our biggest strenghts the last 5 seasons has been the consistency, determination and heart of our key starters.

Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Bass and Garnett are all high energy guys, and when they come out they always play with 150% effort. 

This preseason Bradley hasn't played, whole the other four guys have all played (expectedly) limited minutes.   About 30 of our 48 minutes at each position are being taken up by guys who haven't played with each other on this team before.  Hell 1/3 of the total playing time (12-15 minutes) at each position is being played by summer league guys, most of whom won't even make the regular season roster.

What you see right now is the worst basketball our team will ever play, and considering that we really haven't been that bad.  Our first three games were competitive and they all had a lot of positive to take out of them - this one was obviously really poor, but everyone has a bad game sometimes...and when you have a bad game with D grade players out there you expect to get blown out.

Fact is that we only need to worry about the guys who are going to get regular playing time during the season, our of the gusy we have seen so far that list is:

- Rondo
- Lee
- Pierce
- Bass
- Garnett
- Terry
- Green
- Sullinger
- Milicic

Right now these are the only guys we need to be concerned about, and so far I really thing every one of these guys has performed nicely.

Rondo, Pierce, Bass and Garnett are proven - we already know exactly what we will get from those guys.

Looking at the remaining guys on that list:

Lee
From what I've see Lee has been really solid.  He struggled in the first game, but since then he's played solid on both ends of the floor, and his athleticism is something much needed on this team.  He's shown signs of an ability to score both outside and off the dribble.

Numbers:
8.3 PPG, 2.5 RPG, 0.8 SPG, 48% FG, 29% 3PT, 90% FT, 0.2 TOPG, 21.5 MPG.


Terry
Terry has not been scoring as aggressively as I had expected, but I think he's defering a lot trying to get the young guys involved in preseason action. Still, he's been super efficient and his shot has been on the money.

Numbers:
8.8 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 3.5 APG, 52% FG, 67% 3PT, 75% FT, 1.0 TOPG, 24 MPG


Green
Up until now Green has probably been our best player off the bench, and thus far he's given us everything I was hoping he would - a scoring threat from anywhere on the floor and a solid perimeter defender who can create matchup problems at multiple positions. Leading this group in scoring so far.

Numbers:
13.3 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 1.0 APG, 53% FG, 44% 3PT, 56% FT, 1.0 TOPG, 25.5 MPG


Sullinger
Sullinger has stuggled on defense so far, but this will improve as his conditioning and knowledge of the system improve.

Aside from that he's given me something I never expected - a 4th *arguably* starting-calibre off the bench.  Numbers wise right now he is challenging Green for the "best player off the bench" title and is currently putting up 'Sixth Man of the Year' type numbers.  If he can keep up his scoring and rebounding and improve he's defence, he's going to be huge for us.  His 3.5 Off Reb per game is a number I haven't seen a Boston player put up in the entire big 3 era, and he's doing that in only 23 minutes after 4 games with the team...he will only get better.

Numbers:
12 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 0.8 APG, 56% FG, 100% 3PT, 85% FT, 1.8 TOPG, 23.3 MPG


Milicic
Darko has given another thing I never expected - a solid 5th option off the bench.  I thought we were really doomed at the backup center spot even AFTER I heard of the Darko signing, but he's been really solid and is giving us exactly what we neet - he's defending the paint and grabbing defensive boards for our second unit. 

Numbers:
3.3 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 0.8 APG, 2.0 BPG, 45% FG, 50% FT, 2.2 TOPG, 14.5 MPG.


So I don't think we should be hanging our head.  Our team may have lost a couple of preseason games, but I'm not looking at the win/loss column right now - I'm using preseason to evaluate how our KEY players are performing...and considering they ahve only played 4 games together so far, I think they are doing pretty well!

Then you consider we still have Wilcox and Bradley who have not yet returned.  We already have a pretty decent idea of what to expect from those guys, and once they get back we have a 12-man deep roster...legitimately.

[bfrombleacher]

...

Agree with everything, except for the "worse than Darko" part. Darko has been plain amazing, far more than a net positive. As much as I hate to be a bully and mean to someone, Jamar Smith's play has just not been good no matter how you cut it.

I think Jamar Smith showed flashes of doing right in practice, which is why he's getting minutes. But I think he's running out of strikes. Christmas is likely sticking from the looks of it.

Christmas is the answer in my opinion. He won't close down Westbrooke but he is more than capable of defending bench PGs (hell, I think he'd do okay against Westbrooke).

Sure, Christmas went 1-4 today but he was only reckless when it didn't count. When he was subbed in early in the game with the Jet, he made the right passes and did the right things.

He is like E'Twaun. Streaky but lots of heart, hustles hard, spreads the floor. Except he's bigger, more athletic and more able to get to the rim. He's also able to make more of a difference without scoring with his defense as shown today.

I'd rather...no...am very happy to have Christmas be a cog in the non-PG-dominant offense when we're resting our rotation or in the worst case scenario.

[kozlodoev]

The only thing that is blatantly obvious is that Jamar Smith is the only one from this lot who can guard the PG position.

Wait, I lied, it's also blatantly obvious that the kids from the overreaction brigade are on a rampage around the forum these days

Oh really?

Perhaps I'm not seeing right.

Please tell me what exactly it is about Jamar Smith's 1:2 assist-to-turnover ratio, his 1:4 steal-to-turnover ratio, his 18% FG shooting that raises your eyebrow?

He is utterly horrible. His passable defensive pressure (which still no match or Dooling's last season) doesn't even come close to making up for the massive liability he is in every other possible facet of the game.

Also that's just the statistical stuff - that's not even considering the level of composure (or lack thereof) he plays with or his complete inability to run a play.

The guy is a scoring PG who has so far been the worst scorer on our team...yes even Darko is shooting at a higher percentage.  What more do you want me to say?

His efficiency is MINUS - i.e. BELOW ZERO. Please find me a Celtics player from last season (or any other player on our current preseason roster) who had a negative efficiency rating. I'll be waiting...

Which part of the "the only one from this lot who can DEFEND the PG position" was not clear? Jamar Smith plays because neither Joseph, nor Christmas can play the PG and Rondo needs to rest.

I think Jamar Smith showed flashes of doing right in practice, which is why he's getting minutes. But I think he's running out of strikes. Christmas is likely sticking from the looks of it.

We had him on the Red Claws last year. The coaching staff is well aware of what he can do (by the way, Eddie House has had longer stretches in which he has looked worse, FWIW).

[bfrombleacher]

The only thing that is blatantly obvious is that Jamar Smith is the only one from this lot who can guard the PG position.

Wait, I lied, it's also blatantly obvious that the kids from the overreaction brigade are on a rampage around the forum these days

Oh really?

Perhaps I'm not seeing right.

Please tell me what exactly it is about Jamar Smith's 1:2 assist-to-turnover ratio, his 1:4 steal-to-turnover ratio, his 18% FG shooting that raises your eyebrow?

He is utterly horrible. His passable defensive pressure (which still no match or Dooling's last season) doesn't even come close to making up for the massive liability he is in every other possible facet of the game.

Also that's just the statistical stuff - that's not even considering the level of composure (or lack thereof) he plays with or his complete inability to run a play.

The guy is a scoring PG who has so far been the worst scorer on our team...yes even Darko is shooting at a higher percentage.  What more do you want me to say?

His efficiency is MINUS - i.e. BELOW ZERO. Please find me a Celtics player from last season (or any other player on our current preseason roster) who had a negative efficiency rating. I'll be waiting...

Which part of the "the only one from this lot who can DEFEND the PG position" was not clear? Jamar Smith plays because neither Joseph, nor Christmas can play the PG and Rondo needs to rest.

I think Jamar Smith showed flashes of doing right in practice, which is why he's getting minutes. But I think he's running out of strikes. Christmas is likely sticking from the looks of it.

We had him on the Red Claws last year. The coaching staff is well aware of what he can do (by the way, Eddie House has had longer stretches in which he has looked worse, FWIW).

Could be what you said. Nobody else could defend the PG, except Rondo.......and the Jet. Maybe we're just keeping him for the off-chance that he becomes something and that he could eat minutes in these meaningless games.

[kozlodoev]

Could be what you said. Nobody else could defend the PG, except Rondo.......and the Jet. Maybe we're just keeping him for the off-chance that he becomes something and that he could eat minutes in these meaningless games.

We're pretty desperate for a third-stringer that can handle the PG spot defensively, so I guess we'll be giving him a hard look hoping he may turn into an Eddie House type of player. Sadly, he seems to have more of Nate Robinson in him...

[bfrombleacher]

Could be what you said. Nobody else could defend the PG, except Rondo.......and the Jet. Maybe we're just keeping him for the off-chance that he becomes something and that he could eat minutes in these meaningless games.

We're pretty desperate for a third-stringer that can handle the PG spot defensively, so I guess we'll be giving him a hard look hoping he may turn into an Eddie House type of player. Sadly, he seems to have more of Nate Robinson in him...

Is he paid less than the minimum? Otherwise I don't see why not someone like Carlos Arroyo as a 3rd stringer.

[SHAQATTACK]

I'll admit I was leaning on fence to dump   Avery Bradley as rookie.  He got absolutley abused the first few times doc gave him a look in a game. AB seemed TO far from ever being any kind of NBA player.  Happily he proved me wrong , and now he is one of my favs in the whole NBA.

Now I find myself wanted to dump Smith too , and not enough patience to allow him to succeed. ( if he can)

I presume DOc and DA are seeing the right stuff in Smith I can't from the limited time I get to watch him in action.

I do think Fab has the natural gifts to play the game , he is just so raw and green to basketball period , much less NBA level. I'm willing to wait it out on FAB , much as it pains me...

LOrdy Lordy ...I'll be glade to see Avery Bradley back in a game.  WIlcox was energy too ...  Take out KG, AB and Wilcox and the Celtics look like Zombies.

[chambers]

I'll admit I was leaning on fence to dump   Avery Bradley as rookie.  He got absolutley abused the first few times doc gave him a look in a game. AB seemed TO far from ever being any kind of NBA player.  Happily he proved me wrong , and now he is one of my favs in the whole NBA.

Now I find myself wanted to dump Smith too , and not enough patience to allow him to succeed. ( if he can)

I presume DOc and DA are seeing the right stuff in Smith I can't from the limited time I get to watch him in action.

I do think Fab has the natural gifts to play the game , he is just so raw and green to basketball period , much less NBA level. I'm willing to wait it out on FAB , much as it pains me...

LOrdy Lordy ...I'll be glade to see Avery Bradley back in a game.  WIlcox was energy too ...  Take out KG, AB and Wilcox and the Celtics look like Zombies.

I'm going to give you a TP for your patience whilst banging your head against a wall after watching the new kids try and work out what's going on 
Just think how this athletic group of young guys will look coming off the bench come playoff time. I really don't think there will be a bench in the NBA that can compete with ours by then.

[crimson_stallion]

Edit: Double post

[crimson_stallion]

Did you watch Avery Bradley play in his first 3 pre season games? He was horrid.

I'm not saying Jamar Smith is the next Iverson-in fact I didn't think he'd make the team, but you need to give all these kids a good 3-4 months before writing them off completely.

You're talking about negative efficiency ratings- your sample size is too small to conclude anything at the moment.

Give him another 10 games at least, it's been 4 games so far.

I understand where you are coming from, but regarding Bradley, first round draft picks typically go in the first round because they are either:

1. Extremely talented
2. Very physically gifted
3. Great attitude / work ethic
4. High in potential / upside
5. NBA ready
6. All of the above

Bradley was clearly raw in his first games with the Celtics but he was always super athletic.  He always was praised by the team for his work ethic in practic.  Rondo was labelling him as "the best perimeter defender on the team" pretty much from day one.  He always had a modest attitude on and off the court, and he bought into the team concept - didn't try to play hero ball. He just had nerves at the start and struggled (his injury didn't help).

With Jamar the numbers on their own don't tell the full story - it's how he's getting those numbers that I don't like.  If he was taking good shots but simply missing them from nerves then fine, but he's jacking up ill-advised shots early in the clock and ignoring teammates who have higher percentage looks.  If he was tryign to be a good teammate and move the ball but made a couple of bad passes then fine, but he's hogging the ball, passing as a last resort, and turning it over while trying to force things.

I saw all of this in the first game he played and I didn't like it, but I figured he was just anxious to play scrub minutes and that once the first-game jitters were out of the way maybe he'd calm down...or Doc would calm him down.  Then he played the next three games and nothing changed.  Jamar is playing hero ball rather than simply buying into the team concept, and by now we should all know how much Doc hates guys who play with that type of attitude.

I know these guys are young and it seems slack to cut them, but you we also need to remember that there are 5 guys fighting for one or two remaining roster spots (depending on whether Doc wants to keep one free) and the guy who gets the spot is going to be the one who plays within himself, buys into the team game and doesn't try to be a hero. 

The guy who gets that spot may one day be expected to come out in a real game and play real minutes, and NBA games aren't always blow-out affairs...in close games 2 or 3 bad plays can be the difference between a win and a loss.  Often the ability to win those 50/50 close games is the difference between a deep playoff run (i.e. Celtics) and a team who just missed the playoffs (i.e. Phoenix).  You cannot afford to have a guy whos going to turn the ball over becuase he wants to do it all himself, or give the opposite team extra possessions by thowing up bad shots early in the shot clock.  Those types of actions lose games, and it's this attitude which (I believe) will seal Jamar's fate when you have a coach who is as team oriented as Doc.

Which part of the "the only one from this lot who can DEFEND the PG position" was not clear? Jamar Smith plays because neither Joseph, nor Christmas can play the PG and Rondo needs to rest.

Sorry, I didn't really respond to this before. Honestly, I just don't see why we need to have someone from this lot to fill that role for us. 

Right now Rajon Rondo and Jason Terry can both defend the PG spot.  Courtney Lee (if need be) is athletic enough and long enough to defend an opposing PG if needed.  When he returns from injury Avery Bradley can defend the PG spot as well as any player in this league.  That's 4 guys on our roster who can fill that role if needed.

If we aren't happy with just those four guys, there are a ton of experienced average-to-mediocre Point Guards on the free agent market who will hapilly sign for the minimum to play for a contender.  Those guys might not fill up the box scores or win awards, but they are proven vets who know how to play - they will buy into the team game and they will play smart (even if they don't play especially well) as a 13th - 15th man on the roster.  These guys would be perfectly capapble of defending the position for spot minutes in the event that one of our guys gets injured or in foul trouble (which is about the only time we'd use a 3rd string PG anyway).