Author Topic: The last roster spot  (Read 7432 times)

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Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 11:28:19 AM »

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I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.


I only brought up the defense, in the sense that if his off the ball offense is not a net positive (which it hasn't been so far), then he needs to make up for it defensively.  Which means he needs to be well above average.  Which he hasn't shown.

But again, with who is he playing on the floor? What schemes is Doc using? What instructions has he given? I can only go by the skill sets he shown to have, that he's not showing much off the ball playing alongside guys like Rob Kurz, Micah Downs, Jamar Smith (who was a disaster with the ball in his hands)... then I don't know how much we can evaluate on that regard as it pertains offensive schemes and his execution on roles within that scheme.

Well, I will also go by the fact that he has yet to play on an NBA roster (or if he has, not for long). 

I am going into this with a strong bias that he is not a quality NBA player.  And so far, what I have seen has corroborated that.

And I'm more than fine with having doubts about him being an NBA player, I have them myself. I just can't put much stock in evaluating a player in situations that aren't remotely representative of what he'll be asked to do and with whom he'll be asked to do it.

What I see is a big guard, who can handle the ball, can play the pick and roll, can push the ball, can go to the basket, can play 3 positions, can spread the floor, and seems willing to put the work and seems to have determination to get it done.

Will he perform well? Not sure myself, I'd like to see him more game-like situations and go from there to see how he fits in our defensive/offensive schemes. Else, what we're seeing is just an extension of the Summer League.

But as it is, and the role I envision him playing considering our roster make-up, I don't see many options out there, and not seeing someone better than him.

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 11:44:10 AM »

Offline mctyson

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This decision is probably going to come down to what our needs are, rather than who is a better talent.

We do not need Jamar Smith.  He was brought in for preseason and camp depth at the PG spot.  Players like him are a dime a dozen, and if we need him during the season because of injury you could grab him easily.

XMas fills a minor need while AB is hurt.  He gives us some of the same toughness and defensive minded ability AB gives us.  When AB comes back XMas will never see the court.

Joseph, to my mind, fills a much more pressing need.  If we lose Pierce or Green, we have only one true SF on the roster.  Lee can move over, but that is a really small wing in today's NBA. 

So I'd rank them Joseph > Xmas > Smith based on need.  I think Xmas is the best player right now of the three.


Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 11:48:20 AM »

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What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2012, 12:03:14 PM »

Offline saltlover

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What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Because of all the rookies the Celtics have in camp, he's the one who's best at point guard.  Doesn't mean he's NBA-ready there, but Doc wants to see if he can get it enough to be an emergency option.  Even if he doesn't make the team out of camp, he'll be sent to Maine and be available in case of emergency during the season, so it's best if he gets ready now.  It's not like we need Rondo to play 40 minutes in preseason games, other than it's fun to watch Rondo play.

Also, it's nice to show Joseph and Christmas that they have competition for those last roster spots.  No need to let those two coast.

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2012, 12:09:05 PM »

Offline Chris

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What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Well, it's been 2 games.  But, I would like to see them give Christmas at least a shot to handle the ball.  I think we have seen enough of Smith.  But I think Christmas needs a bit more of a look, to see if he can be the "break in case of emergency" combo guard.  I have my doubts, but might as well take a look.

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2012, 12:40:08 PM »

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Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).

It is possible to have a 4th guard who is neither experienced nor a project.
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Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2012, 06:42:24 PM »

Offline erisred

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Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2012, 06:57:40 PM »

Offline CelticHooligan3

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Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.



I see this as well. And i know this is pretty much nit picking at this point but wouldn't we be better suited to use Fab in this role instead of Collins?

It frees up an extra roster spot we can use for a guard and it's not like were asking too much out of Fab. In my mind any time he can get on the floor as a rook is a bonus, and all he has to do is foul hard. Why couldn't he fill that role? It's not rocket science.

I think keeping him around the vets is important for his long term growth. If he can fill Collins minutes it may go a long way in terms of his confidence. He clearly has a ton to learn from what i saw in his first preseason games but i think sending him up to Maine might be a setback in his development.

Just my two cents though..

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2012, 07:09:59 PM »

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What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Because of all the rookies the Celtics have in camp, he's the one who's best at point guard.  Doesn't mean he's NBA-ready there, but Doc wants to see if he can get it enough to be an emergency option.  Even if he doesn't make the team out of camp, he'll be sent to Maine and be available in case of emergency during the season, so it's best if he gets ready now.  It's not like we need Rondo to play 40 minutes in preseason games, other than it's fun to watch Rondo play.

Also, it's nice to show Joseph and Christmas that they have competition for those last roster spots.  No need to let those two coast.

Other than Smith is taking the bulk of the minutes, minutes that should be used to evaluate Christmas and Joseph who have been the clear favorites to take those last roster spots. Instead, Smith has seen extensive time in these two games, and he just doesn't look to be able to play the part.

So it's time to move on. I'm all for showing they have competition, but not at the expense of barely giving them any chance to properly evaluate them.

First game, Smith 12 minutes... Joseph only 5 minutes, and Christmas 7 minutes. I didn't manage to watch much of this game, but I bet Smith took over PG role when he was on the floor over Christmas.

Second game, Smith 12 minutes.... Joseph only 7 minutes and Christmas 9 minutes. Once again, Smith taking over PG duties where he sucked, and was later take off those duties in favor of Christmas who was better there.

In 9 minutes, he went 4-6, grabbed 4 rebounds with 1 TO and 9 points. Certainly something to build on. But certainly, needs more evaluation to see if he has what it takes for this role, and giving Smith the amount of opportunity he's been given so far is doing no one any favors as far as I'm concerned.


What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Well, it's been 2 games.  But, I would like to see them give Christmas at least a shot to handle the ball.  I think we have seen enough of Smith.  But I think Christmas needs a bit more of a look, to see if he can be the "break in case of emergency" combo guard.  I have my doubts, but might as well take a look.

That's all I'm asking, else all we're doing is speculating upon factors that have little bearing. I can only say that I really like his skill set and how it seems to fit with what we could need, but don't have anything to go on more than that.

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2012, 07:12:26 PM »

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Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).

It is possible to have a 4th guard who is neither experienced nor a project.

You mean, like Lee/Bradley? Or are we talking about our potential 5th guard?

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2012, 08:43:54 PM »

Offline billysan

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Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.

Or Marc Gasol/Randolph, or Monroe/Drummond, or Deandre Jordan/Griffin, or Al Jefferson/ Milsap, etc, etc. I dont get the people that think there are no big men left in the NBA. Even Dallas, Kaman and Nowitski. I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

KG is great at the 5 but Depth is a good thing as we play out this 5 minute thing with him. Collins is also on a guaranteed contract even if it is the minimum. He knows he is jut a warm body, we need him this year as an emergency backup center while Melo develops. Besides, we signed him before we knew we would get Darko.

We need 20 mpg at the 5 spot behind KG. Collins will be part of that number.
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Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2012, 09:13:19 PM »

Offline billysan

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We really have 2 available roster spots with 3 serious contenders. Jamar Smith, Dionte Christmas, and Kris Joseph. I do like the other kid, Micah Downs from the small sample size but I doubt he has a shot as we need a guard.

IMHO, Joseph will get a shot and be sent to the D league until probably December on a partial. Christmas will likely win a partial until December as a 4th body at the guard until we see if AB is able to come back.

I would watch the Camp cut list for the next few weeks until the final rosters are set. If a competent PG or combo guard becomes available, Danny will sign him to the minimum and cut one of these. The same scenario will play out at the deadline for guaranteed contracts and at the trade deadline if necessary.
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Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2012, 10:38:09 PM »

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Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.

Or Marc Gasol/Randolph, or Monroe/Drummond, or Deandre Jordan/Griffin, or Al Jefferson/ Milsap, etc, etc. I dont get the people that think there are no big men left in the NBA. Even Dallas, Kaman and Nowitski. I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

KG is great at the 5 but Depth is a good thing as we play out this 5 minute thing with him. Collins is also on a guaranteed contract even if it is the minimum. He knows he is jut a warm body, we need him this year as an emergency backup center while Melo develops. Besides, we signed him before we knew we would get Darko.

We need 20 mpg at the 5 spot behind KG. Collins will be part of that number.

No need to put a stopper like Jason Collins on the floor when the opponent's center is as limited offensively as those names in bold (D.Jordan, T.Chandler, A.Drummond).

Boston will be better off putting extra offense on the floor against those players. They are not strong enough offensively to punish the smaller (weaker) defender. And the added offense boosts Boston's offense + stops their interior defender (say Tyson Chandler) from camping out in the paint and helping freely and often off of someone as limited as Jason Collins (offensively).

A guy like Jason Collins - because of all his weaknesses (mainly offensively, also possession creation) - is only really valuable when he has someone to stop. A quality offensive threat to limit. Without that type of matchup, Boston is better off playing smaller.

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2012, 12:07:07 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.

Or Marc Gasol/Randolph, or Monroe/Drummond, or Deandre Jordan/Griffin, or Al Jefferson/ Milsap, etc, etc. I dont get the people that think there are no big men left in the NBA. Even Dallas, Kaman and Nowitski. I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

KG is great at the 5 but Depth is a good thing as we play out this 5 minute thing with him. Collins is also on a guaranteed contract even if it is the minimum. He knows he is jut a warm body, we need him this year as an emergency backup center while Melo develops. Besides, we signed him before we knew we would get Darko.

We need 20 mpg at the 5 spot behind KG. Collins will be part of that number.

No need to put a stopper like Jason Collins on the floor when the opponent's center is as limited offensively as those names in bold (D.Jordan, T.Chandler, A.Drummond).

Boston will be better off putting extra offense on the floor against those players. They are not strong enough offensively to punish the smaller (weaker) defender. And the added offense boosts Boston's offense + stops their interior defender (say Tyson Chandler) from camping out in the paint and helping freely and often off of someone as limited as Jason Collins (offensively).

A guy like Jason Collins - because of all his weaknesses (mainly offensively, also possession creation) - is only really valuable when he has someone to stop. A quality offensive threat to limit. Without that type of matchup, Boston is better off playing smaller.

I'd argue that Chandler is capable of punishing a smaller defender -- I think his problem is that Anthony might not recognize this.  Also, going too much smaller exposes the defense to offensive rebounds, which has been an Achilles heel for years.

That said, I do not expect Collins to see the floor in most competitive games where KG and Darko are healthy.  Fortunately, I don't think Collins does either, so that won't be a locker room issue.  He knows his role.

Re: The last roster spot
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2012, 01:29:43 AM »

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Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).

It is possible to have a 4th guard who is neither experienced nor a project.

You mean, like Lee/Bradley? Or are we talking about our potential 5th guard?

I think we are talking about the 4th guard while Bradley is out.  My idea of a useful player in that role who is neither an experienced NBA veteran nor a project is finding a mature player with NBA talent who failed to catch on in the league but matured overseas (and/or perhaps the D-League) for a few years and is capable of contributing immediately.
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