The last roster spot

[Chris]

After just two games (and very brief stints on the floor), it may be too early to write off the two guys fighting for the last spot on the bench (for the purpose of this post, I am going to assume Danny is going to give Joseph a longer look, because he drafted him...but that is by no means a given).

But, I must say, I have been very underwhelmed so far.

First, lets start with Smith.  He looks overwhelmed with the stage, and his skills are not impressive.  He looks like he has Eddie House's ball handling ability, without the outside shot, or anything else for that matter.  I have seen nothing to set him apart from any other D-League player...in fact, I think he would be pretty far down the call-up list.

Now, Christmas is a little different.  He has some intriguing skills.  He has a tenacity that reminds me a bit of Moore.  He is not afraid to take the big shot, and he really plays with a lot of energy.  He also has a decent first step, and is an OK finisher. 

But as I said in another thread, I think Scal had a good call on him.  He is like Tony Allen offensively.  He can do some things with the ball in his hands.  He can drive a bit, and can finish at the hoop.  The problem is, he is not good enough at those things for you to put the ball in his hands over any other players on this team.  And, when he is playing off the ball, he looked completely lost.  His spacing was terrible, he never looked ready to catch and shoot, and he just looked out of place.

That was exactly the same way Allen was, who was at his best offensively when he was playing on essentially a D-league team in Boston, and then he really made the leap, when he was completely cut out of the offense in Memphis, and basically only touched the ball on hustle plays and fast breaks...which worked, because he was such a dominant defender.

But Christmas does not seem to be anything more than an average defender (if even that).  So, basically, he has no use on this team. 

So, at this (admittedly premature) time, I am ready to cut ties on both of these guys, and see if there is someone else who might fill that spot better.  Thoughts?

[wdleehi]

I still think Joseph has the best chance.


His two strengths are off the ball.  Defense and a respectable outside shot. 

[mgent]

This is what I've been saying for a week or two now.  Only having 3 healthy guards on the roster is an issue, no matter what blind believers say.  Especially when only one of those guys is an actual PG and is responsible for at least 36 minutes a night.  I personally am not comfortable with either of these undrafted rookies filling that void if need be.

Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).



Edit:  I also think it's funny that Smith said after the first game that he considered getting the ball across half court an accomplishment.  E'Twawn's confidence was on such another level compared to him.  That's what you need from your PG, I see this kid causing tons of TOs.

[Mencius]

I could cut ties with Smith now, too.  He's strictly D-league talent, imo.  If they are just selecting from the training camp roster, then I'd say Christmas and Joseph stick.

If, however, there's a chance they bring in another PG (my preference), then it's between Xmas and Joseph for the last spot.  Christmas has shown more than Joseph in summer league and so far in preseason.  That could all change with one strong game from Joseph, since we're talking about such small sample sizes so far.  Guess it would depend on whether Doc thinks Lee/Christmas can give him spot minutes at the 3 if need be, or whether he opts for Joseph's greater size.

[fairweatherfan]

Does anyone know when the official cutdown day is? 

I'd like to see Joseph get a shot.  Haven't watched much of the other guys but XMas seems like a better fit.  Not counting on much from either though, and I'd like us to pick up a veteran at some point during the year, so flip a coin on that one. 

[aporel#18]

Smith's contract is guaranteed until november 15. He won't make the roster, and they'll try to get him to play for the Rock Lobsters.

Joseph is a project, and he'll probably be sent down to D-League alongside Melo. But he'll make the 15 men roster.

Xmas has a chance because of Avery's injury, he's insurance while Avery is out. He'll make the team and probably will get some minutes, but I don't know if there's a timeline where his contract becomes fully guaranteed. If so, he and Collins will own the last roster spots. By waiving one of them Danny could still sign someone for the vet min without exceeding the apron, I think. Anyway, I find it hard to believe Danny will find a free agent who can contribute. But what do I know.

[CelticHooligan3]

Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?

[wdleehi]

Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?

He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team. 

[Chris]

Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?

He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations. 

[Chris]

Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?

He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations. 

...As for Melo, he is a LONG ways away from being anywhere close to ready.  You can see the talent, but he has no clue what he is doing.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.

The only real way to evaluate his impact effectively will be to playing with our 1st and 2nd units, and see how he fits with them.

And I don't like the Tony Allen comparison all told. Christmas has much better handle and can actually shoot the ball, and seems to have a higher IQ (which is not hard to do). Also, Tony Allen is simply one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, so that he's not Tony Allen defensively doesn't say much to me on that regard either.

In all Christmas is the type of multi-faceted player the Celtics can use, and I don't see any other options that can fill that role better than him... one roster spot, but able to fill a variety of roles when called upon.

[CelticHooligan3]

Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?

He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

So i hear..

But getting burned by euro stiffs didn't give me great feelings. At this point i see him as 6 fouls to Bynum and Howard. But with so many other bigs i'd rather see the young guys get his minutes.

Were you not surprised even a little by his lack of mobility and late reactions on rotations?

I'm searching for positives but my eyes don't deceive me. I saw a guy who danny brought in as a contingency plan but who now is very replaceable with Milicic here and Wilcox being healthy (hopefully).

Wouldn't you rather see garbage minutes go to Fabulous and keep him around the club to learn from the vets?

[Chris]

I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.

I only brought up the defense, in the sense that if his off the ball offense is not a net positive (which it hasn't been so far), then he needs to make up for it defensively.  Which means he needs to be well above average.  Which he hasn't shown.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.

I only brought up the defense, in the sense that if his off the ball offense is not a net positive (which it hasn't been so far), then he needs to make up for it defensively.  Which means he needs to be well above average.  Which he hasn't shown.

But again, with who is he playing on the floor? What schemes is Doc using? What instructions has he given? I can only go by the skill sets he shown to have, that he's not showing much off the ball playing alongside guys like Rob Kurz, Micah Downs, Jamar Smith (who was a disaster with the ball in his hands)... then I don't know how much we can evaluate on that regard as it pertains offensive schemes and his execution on roles within that scheme.

[Chris]

I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.

I only brought up the defense, in the sense that if his off the ball offense is not a net positive (which it hasn't been so far), then he needs to make up for it defensively.  Which means he needs to be well above average.  Which he hasn't shown.

But again, with who is he playing on the floor? What schemes is Doc using? What instructions has he given? I can only go by the skill sets he shown to have, that he's not showing much off the ball playing alongside guys like Rob Kurz, Micah Downs, Jamar Smith (who was a disaster with the ball in his hands)... then I don't know how much we can evaluate on that regard as it pertains offensive schemes and his execution on roles within that scheme.

Well, I will also go by the fact that he has yet to play on an NBA roster (or if he has, not for long). 

I am going into this with a strong bias that he is not a quality NBA player.  And so far, what I have seen has corroborated that.