Author Topic: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?  (Read 9526 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chris

  • Global Moderator
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17965
  • Tommy Points: 634
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2012, 03:12:36 PM »

If our roster circumstances were different, say Avery Bradley was a more capable PG, I'd be more than happy with Dooling and the role he could play for us. I just think we need more ball handlers than what Dooling actually brings.

The only thing I'd be wary about is Doc putting Dooling on point, regardless of better options in that position. I don't trust Doc to make the correct call under those circumstances.

Assuming we have two open roster spots, our needs as I see them is adding a ball-handler who has some length (which is why I like the prospect of Christmas, who can play 3 positions) and adding another player who can fill in as a SF as needed (even better if he can slide to the 2 when needed too). I think looking for a PG for the sake of looking for a PG, or a veteran for the sake of getting a veteran it's a mistake if they don't fit those parameters I envision.

OK, we are not that far off here.  I also would prefer a better ballhandler than Dooling.  But, if it came down to a proven veteran, who can defend and knock down shots...and a completely unproven young player who may be a better ball handler...then I choose the Dooling clone.  And right now, that might be the choice.

As for Christmas.  I just have lost all faith in him already.  It is a tiny sample size (although I am also biased by the fact that he hasn't caught on to the NBA thus far, which suggests to me, he probably isn't nearly as good as some suggest), but so far, he has just looked like a guy who is not an NBA talent.  Especially if you are going to potentially ask him to have the ball in his hands.

I have much more confidence in a guy like Joseph being able to come in, and basically just be a defensive specialist SF, where they can hide him on offense if they need to.  It is harder to do that, if you need to break the glass for a PG.

I like the idea of Christmas (long combo guard, who can handle the ball, and defend 3 positions), I just don't think he is actually that player at the NBA level.  Which is why I have a problem. 

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11281
  • Tommy Points: 1085
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2012, 03:20:41 PM »

If our roster circumstances were different, say Avery Bradley was a more capable PG, I'd be more than happy with Dooling and the role he could play for us. I just think we need more ball handlers than what Dooling actually brings.

The only thing I'd be wary about is Doc putting Dooling on point, regardless of better options in that position. I don't trust Doc to make the correct call under those circumstances.

Assuming we have two open roster spots, our needs as I see them is adding a ball-handler who has some length (which is why I like the prospect of Christmas, who can play 3 positions) and adding another player who can fill in as a SF as needed (even better if he can slide to the 2 when needed too). I think looking for a PG for the sake of looking for a PG, or a veteran for the sake of getting a veteran it's a mistake if they don't fit those parameters I envision.

OK, we are not that far off here.  I also would prefer a better ballhandler than Dooling.  But, if it came down to a proven veteran, who can defend and knock down shots...and a completely unproven young player who may be a better ball handler...then I choose the Dooling clone.  And right now, that might be the choice.

As for Christmas.  I just have lost all faith in him already.  It is a tiny sample size (although I am also biased by the fact that he hasn't caught on to the NBA thus far, which suggests to me, he probably isn't nearly as good as some suggest), but so far, he has just looked like a guy who is not an NBA talent.  Especially if you are going to potentially ask him to have the ball in his hands.

I have much more confidence in a guy like Joseph being able to come in, and basically just be a defensive specialist SF, where they can hide him on offense if they need to.  It is harder to do that, if you need to break the glass for a PG.

I like the idea of Christmas (long combo guard, who can handle the ball, and defend 3 positions), I just don't think he is actually that player at the NBA level.  Which is why I have a problem.

I'm cool with that assessment. In some manner I have more distrust in how Doc would use Dooling than anything against Dooling.

As for Christmas, I just wish there was a better candidate I could be confident about, but as I'm not seeing it yet, then I'm willing to roll the dice with him for the time being. As it is, I only want Doc to give him a good opportunity, in game, during these coming games to make a proper evaluation.

I really don't want to hear about how practices are going, his defensive problems in practices, etc., etc. I don't think that's a good enough manner to go about evaluating players. The first step is to remove Smith from the equation. And for that matter, stop playing him alongside the rejects, that's a poor way to evaluate worth/value too.

At the moment though, I don't know why you're so confident in Joseph over Christmas... he hasn't shown me anything yet, other than what he showed in Summer League, which I enjoyed watching. So curious over you confidence in him, and nothing to show for Christmas.

I have a theory that Scal's comment about TA contaminated your perception a bit :P

Offline Chris

  • Global Moderator
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17965
  • Tommy Points: 634
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2012, 03:38:33 PM »

If our roster circumstances were different, say Avery Bradley was a more capable PG, I'd be more than happy with Dooling and the role he could play for us. I just think we need more ball handlers than what Dooling actually brings.

The only thing I'd be wary about is Doc putting Dooling on point, regardless of better options in that position. I don't trust Doc to make the correct call under those circumstances.

Assuming we have two open roster spots, our needs as I see them is adding a ball-handler who has some length (which is why I like the prospect of Christmas, who can play 3 positions) and adding another player who can fill in as a SF as needed (even better if he can slide to the 2 when needed too). I think looking for a PG for the sake of looking for a PG, or a veteran for the sake of getting a veteran it's a mistake if they don't fit those parameters I envision.

OK, we are not that far off here.  I also would prefer a better ballhandler than Dooling.  But, if it came down to a proven veteran, who can defend and knock down shots...and a completely unproven young player who may be a better ball handler...then I choose the Dooling clone.  And right now, that might be the choice.

As for Christmas.  I just have lost all faith in him already.  It is a tiny sample size (although I am also biased by the fact that he hasn't caught on to the NBA thus far, which suggests to me, he probably isn't nearly as good as some suggest), but so far, he has just looked like a guy who is not an NBA talent.  Especially if you are going to potentially ask him to have the ball in his hands.

I have much more confidence in a guy like Joseph being able to come in, and basically just be a defensive specialist SF, where they can hide him on offense if they need to.  It is harder to do that, if you need to break the glass for a PG.

I like the idea of Christmas (long combo guard, who can handle the ball, and defend 3 positions), I just don't think he is actually that player at the NBA level.  Which is why I have a problem.

I'm cool with that assessment. In some manner I have more distrust in how Doc would use Dooling than anything against Dooling.

As for Christmas, I just wish there was a better candidate I could be confident about, but as I'm not seeing it yet, then I'm willing to roll the dice with him for the time being. As it is, I only want Doc to give him a good opportunity, in game, during these coming games to make a proper evaluation.

I really don't want to hear about how practices are going, his defensive problems in practices, etc., etc. I don't think that's a good enough manner to go about evaluating players. The first step is to remove Smith from the equation. And for that matter, stop playing him alongside the rejects, that's a poor way to evaluate worth/value too.

At the moment though, I don't know why you're so confident in Joseph over Christmas... he hasn't shown me anything yet, other than what he showed in Summer League, which I enjoyed watching. So curious over you confidence in him, and nothing to show for Christmas.

I have a theory that Scal's comment about TA contaminated your perception a bit :P

Yeah, at this point, I think there is no choice but to let Christmas try his hand for a couple months.  We have to pay him for half the season anyways. 

But I think the chances of him remaining on the roster after January are very slim, because they will likely try to pick up a veteran for that position as insurance for the playoffs.

As for Joseph over Christmas.  I just think Joseph has shown that he can be an above average defender.  And I have yet to see any above average skills that Christmas offers.

Offline Vermont Green

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1761
  • Tommy Points: 105
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2012, 05:13:21 PM »
I don't get the Christmas playing PG suggestion.  He probably isn't good enough to play even his natrual position in the NBA (SG) much less learn and be productive in a new position.

In that it appears that the Cs are not going to pick up another PG, they must  feel as though they can get by with who they got until Bradley comes back.  When Bradley is back, they are fine.  Bradley, Terry, and of course Rondo can all play PG plenty well enough.

Until Bradley gets back, we are thin with only Rondo and Terry as established PGs.  Yeah sure, maybe Lee could in a pinch bring the ball up but if he played PG, he would be playing out of position.

We are also thin at SG when you figure that we only have Lee and Terry.  I am less worried about that becasue I think Pierce can play SG as much as needed if someone gets hurt.  If that happened, Green would just play more at SF to cover for Pierce.

The real exposure I feel is if Rondo or Terry get hurt, suspended, or are otherwise out before Bradley is ready.  We would likely need to resort to a quick signing at that point.

We are vulnerable if Lee were to get hurt also but I think they would cover that with Pierce at SG.

It is definitely a risk to wait for Bradley it is only a problem if someone gets hurt

Offline billysan

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3443
  • Tommy Points: 154
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2012, 05:25:59 PM »
I don't get the Christmas playing PG suggestion.  He probably isn't good enough to play even his natrual position in the NBA (SG) much less learn and be productive in a new position.

In that it appears that the Cs are not going to pick up another PG, they must  feel as though they can get by with who they got until Bradley comes back.  When Bradley is back, they are fine.  Bradley, Terry, and of course Rondo can all play PG plenty well enough.

Until Bradley gets back, we are thin with only Rondo and Terry as established PGs.  Yeah sure, maybe Lee could in a pinch bring the ball up but if he played PG, he would be playing out of position.

We are also thin at SG when you figure that we only have Lee and Terry.  I am less worried about that becasue I think Pierce can play SG as much as needed if someone gets hurt.  If that happened, Green would just play more at SF to cover for Pierce.

The real exposure I feel is if Rondo or Terry get hurt, suspended, or are otherwise out before Bradley is ready.  We would likely need to resort to a quick signing at that point.

We are vulnerable if Lee were to get hurt also but I think they would cover that with Pierce at SG.

It is definitely a risk to wait for Bradley it is only a problem if someone gets hurt
I dont think (havent researched) that Terry, Lee or Rondo have much of a serious injury history. I am sure Rondo doesnt. Only Bradley falls in that category so hopefully we dont have to fight an injury situation.

Pretty sure everyone would love a young PG added to the roster for grooming by the big three. I know that if one becomes available, even a solid journeyman, then Danny will not hestitate to cut one of these to make room.
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Online Who

  • Larry Bird
  • *****************************
  • Posts: 29113
  • Tommy Points: 1211
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2012, 05:53:12 PM »

Other than as far as depth charts go, the addition of Terry (with the assumption of Lee being a Ray Allen replacement) is actually the Dooling replacement. Just because Terry is not bad enough to be an end of bench player doesn't mean we should ignore the upgrade.


All I am talking about is depth chart.  Dooling was valuable, because he gave us an extra body, who could play the 1 or 2 in case of injuries. 

With Bradley out, we are now 2 deep with NBA players who can play PG (Rondo and Terry).  It will be less of an issue when Bradley comes back, but even then, given that Bradley is also the backup SG, it isn't a ton of depth.

That is an issue.  I think Lee is much more capable of playing SF, than he is of playing PG.  So, we are 3 deep at SF (Pierce, Green, and Lee), which isn't bad.

I disagree, I think it's the opposite actually ... that Courtney Lee is a much better PG than SF.

I am comfortable with Courtney Lee playing PG minutes if required.

Well, I define these positions by who they defend (because you can always shift around who handles the ball, etc.), and I think Lee is more capable of defending most SFs than he is most PGs.
I still disagree. I think Courtney Lee is a very good defensive player against PGs but consider him below average against SFs.

I also consider him a good rebounder at PG but very weak against SFs.

Offline gar

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2532
  • Tommy Points: 241
  • Strength from Within
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2012, 07:20:13 PM »
Christmas reminds me of Tony Allen with a better shot and a little less athleticism. The fact that Doc actually considered using Toney Allen at PG suggests he is willing to try anything; but as we have seen in the past with very limited results.

Don't know where the idea of Lee at PG is coming from. Somebody please clue me in. This is new to me.

Online Who

  • Larry Bird
  • *****************************
  • Posts: 29113
  • Tommy Points: 1211
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2012, 07:36:56 PM »
Don't know where the idea of Lee at PG is coming from. Somebody please clue me in. This is new to me.
Stan Van Gundy used him at both guard positions during training camp as a rookie and was complimentary about Lee's capacity to play there.

-------------------------------------------

Courtney Lee also has a very good history of defending smaller guards at a high level.

Courtney Lee is also a good ball-handler and solid passer (skill-level). He has good composure with the ball and decision making skills (right mental characteristics). He wouldn't be able to create for anyone else but he could initiate an offense. Similar to Avery Bradley's PG play for most of last year. Only with a better jump-shot. 

Given all of that, I believe Courtney Lee has the right skill-set (as a natural two guard) to be used as a make-shift point guard if necessary.

Offline billysan

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3443
  • Tommy Points: 154
Re: Doc wants backup point. Where is Dooling?
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2012, 09:06:37 PM »

Other than as far as depth charts go, the addition of Terry (with the assumption of Lee being a Ray Allen replacement) is actually the Dooling replacement. Just because Terry is not bad enough to be an end of bench player doesn't mean we should ignore the upgrade.


All I am talking about is depth chart.  Dooling was valuable, because he gave us an extra body, who could play the 1 or 2 in case of injuries. 

With Bradley out, we are now 2 deep with NBA players who can play PG (Rondo and Terry).  It will be less of an issue when Bradley comes back, but even then, given that Bradley is also the backup SG, it isn't a ton of depth.

That is an issue.  I think Lee is much more capable of playing SF, than he is of playing PG.  So, we are 3 deep at SF (Pierce, Green, and Lee), which isn't bad.

I disagree, I think it's the opposite actually ... that Courtney Lee is a much better PG than SF.

I am comfortable with Courtney Lee playing PG minutes if required.

Well, I define these positions by who they defend (because you can always shift around who handles the ball, etc.), and I think Lee is more capable of defending most SFs than he is most PGs.
I still disagree. I think Courtney Lee is a very good defensive player against PGs but consider him below average against SFs.

I also consider him a good rebounder at PG but very weak against SFs.

Agree, he has the capability to defend PG's but not the size against SF.

Not sure he is a good enough ballhandler to bring the ball up as a PG though.
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog