Author Topic: Triple Crown  (Read 4784 times)

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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2012, 08:14:30 PM »

Online Roy H.

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The MVP debate is ridiculous. If Trout got the Triple Crown and Miggy had Trout's numbers, everyone would say Trout will win the MVP hands down. There should be no debate, the MVP has to go to Cabrera. The fact that people are debating this says a lot.

What does that "fact" say about people?

That they value gold glove defense + base-running along with similar hitting?  That they appreciate that since Trout was promoted, the Angels won games at a league-leading pace?

Mike Trout is almost as good of a hitter as Cabrera, but he's also perhaps the best defensive outfielder and best base-runner in the American league.

Why does it make sense to ignore defense and wins, just because one player won three arbitrary statistical categories?

If somebody had randomly decided that the "triple crown" should be runs, stolen bases, and WAR, would that mean Trout deserved the MVP? 

Trout had a better all-around year, period.  When Trout was in the lineup, the Angels were better than the Tigers, period.  To me, those two things suggest that Trout is more deserving of the MVP.  He won't win it, but he deserves it.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2012, 03:19:15 AM »

Offline staticcc

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The MVP debate is ridiculous. If Trout got the Triple Crown and Miggy had Trout's numbers, everyone would say Trout will win the MVP hands down. There should be no debate, the MVP has to go to Cabrera. The fact that people are debating this says a lot.


What does that "fact" say about people?

That they value gold glove defense + base-running along with similar hitting?  That they appreciate that since Trout was promoted, the Angels won games at a league-leading pace?

Mike Trout is almost as good of a hitter as Cabrera, but he's also perhaps the best defensive outfielder and best base-runner in the American league.

Why does it make sense to ignore defense and wins, just because one player won three arbitrary statistical categories?

If somebody had randomly decided that the "triple crown" should be runs, stolen bases, and WAR, would that mean Trout deserved the MVP? 

Trout had a better all-around year, period.  When Trout was in the lineup, the Angels were better than the Tigers, period.  To me, those two things suggest that Trout is more deserving of the MVP.  He won't win it, but he deserves it.


It says people don't understand how difficult and rare it is to achieve the Triple Crown. 17 times in the history of the MLB. He's in the history books with Gehrig and Mantle.

Sorry for being old school, but winning a triple crown > leading in any other offensive statistical category.
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2012, 03:22:37 AM »

Offline staticcc

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The MVP debate is ridiculous. If Trout got the Triple Crown and Miggy had Trout's numbers, everyone would say Trout will win the MVP hands down. There should be no debate, the MVP has to go to Cabrera. The fact that people are debating this says a lot.


What does that "fact" say about people?

That they value gold glove defense + base-running along with similar hitting?  That they appreciate that since Trout was promoted, the Angels won games at a league-leading pace?

Mike Trout is almost as good of a hitter as Cabrera, but he's also perhaps the best defensive outfielder and best base-runner in the American league.

Why does it make sense to ignore defense and wins, just because one player won three arbitrary statistical categories?

If somebody had randomly decided that the "triple crown" should be runs, stolen bases, and WAR, would that mean Trout deserved the MVP? 

Trout had a better all-around year, period.  When Trout was in the lineup, the Angels were better than the Tigers, period.  To me, those two things suggest that Trout is more deserving of the MVP.  He won't win it, but he deserves it.


It says people don't understand how difficult and rare it is to achieve the Triple Crown. 17 times in the history of the MLB. He's in the history books with Gehrig and Mantle.

Sorry for being old school, but winning a triple crown > leading in any other offensive statistical category.

Oh and Trout still didn't get his team to the playoffs despite playing in 140 games.
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2012, 11:27:24 AM »

Online Roy H.

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It says people don't understand how difficult and rare it is to achieve the Triple Crown. 17 times in the history of the MLB. He's in the history books with Gehrig and Mantle.

Sorry for being old school, but winning a triple crown > leading in any other offensive statistical category.

Winning the triple crown is extraordinarily difficult.  However, it doesn't make you the best player in the game, or the most valuable one.  There is more to baseball than batting average, home runs, and RBIs.

Quote
Oh and Trout still didn't get his team to the playoffs despite playing in 140 games.

So, Cabrera's feat in getting his team to win fewer games in a much weaker division was more impressive to you?


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2012, 01:45:09 PM »

Offline Moranis

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It says people don't understand how difficult and rare it is to achieve the Triple Crown. 17 times in the history of the MLB. He's in the history books with Gehrig and Mantle.

Sorry for being old school, but winning a triple crown > leading in any other offensive statistical category.

Winning the triple crown is extraordinarily difficult.  However, it doesn't make you the best player in the game, or the most valuable one.  There is more to baseball than batting average, home runs, and RBIs.

Quote
Oh and Trout still didn't get his team to the playoffs despite playing in 140 games.

So, Cabrera's feat in getting his team to win fewer games in a much weaker division was more impressive to you?
Cabrera led baseball in OPS, which is widely regarded as the stat that best yields a players true value.
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2012, 05:50:35 PM »

Online Roy H.

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It says people don't understand how difficult and rare it is to achieve the Triple Crown. 17 times in the history of the MLB. He's in the history books with Gehrig and Mantle.

Sorry for being old school, but winning a triple crown > leading in any other offensive statistical category.

Winning the triple crown is extraordinarily difficult.  However, it doesn't make you the best player in the game, or the most valuable one.  There is more to baseball than batting average, home runs, and RBIs.

Quote
Oh and Trout still didn't get his team to the playoffs despite playing in 140 games.

So, Cabrera's feat in getting his team to win fewer games in a much weaker division was more impressive to you?
Cabrera led baseball in OPS, which is widely regarded as the stat that best yields a players true value.

No, it's the stat that is widely regarded as yielding a player's best *offensive* value.

OPS says nothing about defense or baserunning.  I've already conceded that Cabrera was a better hitter.  The fact that Cabrera was first in OPS (with Trout in second) doesn't negate Trout's vastly superior baserunning or gold glove defense.

The sabermetric stat that statsheads rely on to determine a "players true value" is WARP.  Trout had a huge lead in that category.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2012, 11:37:34 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Stat geeks will also tell you that stolen bases might be the most over rated and useless stat in baseball that has a better chanced of leading your team to losing a chance to score than gaining one.

Also, its a lot easier to get WAR in CF than in the power positions. Just ask Jacoby Ellsbury.

Cabrera did something not done in 45 years while leading his team to a division title while having a lot less talent around him than Trout. He also had one of the top 15 total base totals in the American league since the color barrier was broken.

The difference in team records was 1 game.

Trout might be the best player in the AL. But Cabrera was this year's MVP.
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2012, 12:15:25 AM »

Offline staticcc

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Stat geeks will also tell you that stolen bases might be the most over rated and useless stat in baseball that has a better chanced of leading your team to losing a chance to score than gaining one.

Also, its a lot easier to get WAR in CF than in the power positions. Just ask Jacoby Ellsbury.

Cabrera did something not done in 45 years while leading his team to a division title while having a lot less talent around him than Trout. He also had one of the top 15 total base totals in the American league since the color barrier was broken.

The difference in team records was 1 game.

Trout might be the best player in the AL. But Cabrera was this year's MVP.


AMEN
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2012, 08:05:18 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Stat geeks will also tell you that stolen bases might be the most over rated and useless stat in baseball that has a better chanced of leading your team to losing a chance to score than gaining one.

If a stats geek says that 49 SBs in 54 attempts doesn't help a team win, he's not very good at his hobby.  I'd like to see a link from anybody credible indicating that Trout's SBs were counterproductive.  A 90% conversion rate on SBs is extremely valuable in terms of run production.

One more time:  why doesn't defense matter at all?  One player plays below average defense; the other probably is the best defensive player in his league.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2012, 09:16:36 AM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Stat geeks will also tell you that stolen bases might be the most over rated and useless stat in baseball that has a better chanced of leading your team to losing a chance to score than gaining one.

If a stats geek says that 49 SBs in 54 attempts doesn't help a team win, he's not very good at his hobby.  I'd like to see a link from anybody credible indicating that Trout's SBs were counterproductive.  A 90% conversion rate on SBs is extremely valuable in terms of run production.

One more time:  why doesn't defense matter at all?  One player plays below average defense; the other probably is the best defensive player in his league.

The only thing I'd say is that miggy played out of position all year for the betterment of his team
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2012, 11:53:37 AM »

Online nickagneta

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Stat geeks will also tell you that stolen bases might be the most over rated and useless stat in baseball that has a better chanced of leading your team to losing a chance to score than gaining one.

If a stats geek says that 49 SBs in 54 attempts doesn't help a team win, he's not very good at his hobby.  I'd like to see a link from anybody credible indicating that Trout's SBs were counterproductive.  A 90% conversion rate on SBs is extremely valuable in terms of run production.

One more time:  why doesn't defense matter at all?  One player plays below average defense; the other probably is the best defensive player in his league.
Well then I guess Bill James isn't very good at what he does:

Quote
More than any other statistical category, stolen bases fluctuate in response to everything else that changes in the game. This is because stolen bases aren't—really—very important. Contrary to popular belief, stolen bases don't create very many runs. Nor do they have very much to do with determining who wins and who loses. Good teams don't steal very many more bases than bad teams. Stolen bases have come and gone throughout baseball history because they are a sort of trendy item, an offensive trinket that has attracted managers at times but has been blithely ignored by them at others.

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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2012, 12:04:24 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Cabrera wins MVP 22 to 6 over Trout.  Not even close in the end.
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 12:06:47 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Cabrera wins MVP 22 to 6 over Trout.  Not even close in the end.


I don't think it should have been close.  Miggy deserved it
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Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 12:10:12 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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I think the media built this up to be bigger than it was. A guy who wins the triple crown, something that hasnt been done in almost 50 years, has to deserve the leagues MVP. Talent wise, Trout might be the leagues best player yes. But was he the Most Valuable Player in the league? In 25 years who are you going to remember more about the 2012 baseball season, Miggy or Trout? Miggy deserves this one big time.

Re: Triple Crown
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 12:14:29 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Agree with the pro-Miggy sentiment. 

He deserved it in my mind.


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