Author Topic: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"  (Read 7985 times)

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Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2012, 01:27:42 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Look at this Boston team right now - who really has the greatest impact on the game both on the court and off?

The answer is Kevin Garnett.  Last season he not only had the highest +/- on the team (and it wasn't even close)  but also one of the highest in the league.  His on-court presence impacts the team more than any other player. 

If you look at the stat sheet you might THINK that Rondo has a greater impact becuase of the sheer numbers he records, but KG impacts the game by doing all the things you don't see on the stat sheet.

KG is one of the best in the league at setting screens, his ultra-reliable jump shot (he shot 46% from midrange last season) forces opposing bigs out of the pain, he's one of the best passing bigs in the league, he never gives up on a loose ball, he blocks and affects shots, he's great at defending the pick and roll and he's the heart and soul of Boston's league leading defense.

Rondo is not far behind in terms of his impact, but I honestly believe that losing KG for a game hurts us more then losing Rondo for a game.


  Rondo also does a ton of things that don't end up in a stat sheet. But while KG is a great player, much of his "impact" came from being the only player on the roster over 6'8 that belonged in the rotation of a playoff team, one of only two decent players bigger than Pierce. (not meaning he's just decent, but that the big subs weren't) Hopefully we'll get decent enough play from Wilcox/Collins/Darko that we won't see the huge dropoff when he leaves the game, which would give him a lower plus/minus as well.

I think there is definite truth to what you say, although that 6'8 number is kind of misleading, Brandon Bass is 6'8 (which i know you also know), and he's a playoff rotation level big.

But what you said also kind of undersells KG; he's pretty definitively the most skilled defensive big not only in the NBA, but possibly since Russell, and anytime that guy isn't on the floor there is going to be a big drop off. While Rondo is a great defensive player, I don't think you could even definitively say he was the best defensive pg last season, let alone a transcendent talent on one end of the floor like KG.

Not to say Rondo isn't the Celtics best player; he is. But KG's +/- numbers are more than just an indicator of a lack of depth behind him.

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Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2012, 03:16:27 AM »

Offline Galeto

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In terms of impact, it's KG by far.  The Celtics were no.1 on defense and no.27 on offense.  Without KG, heck, with even just an average defense, they would have been a lottery team.  That's basically all on KG.

As for Rondo's defense, I don't think it's very good because I don't think he tries mostly.  It was good his first two seasons but the past three years, he's given up penetration way too easily and more often than not, barely tries to rotate and contest shots on the perimeter. Maybe it's because he expends too much energy having the ball so much, I don't know.  Either way, in the 13 games he missed, their offensive efficiency was 1.7 worse but their defensive efficiency was 5 points better.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2012, 04:25:02 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I agree with both of those last two statements.

I think the big thing with KG is he is such a good all round player...there really is no hole in his game.   

He doesn't only defend at an elite level, he does just about everything at an elite level. 

Among all NBA Centers last season (per 48 minutes) KG ranked:
* 1st in assists (4.5 AP48)
* 4th in scoring (24.4 PP48)
* 9th in steals (1.44 SP48)
* 19th in rebounds (12.7 RP48)
* 25th in blocks (1.57 BP48)

Among all centers he also ranked:
* 1st in FT% (85.7%)
* 2nd in Assist/TO (1.64)
* 7th in 3PM (3)
* 9th in FG% (50.3%)
* 9th in double doubles (21)

That there gives him:
* 4 stat categories where he ranked top 5 at his pos
* 4 stat categories where he ranked top 10 at his pos
* 2 stat categories where he wanted top 25 at his pos

Basically you're looking at a guy who ranks top 10 among centers in all but 2 statistical categories (and top 25 in those) and that's just looking at simple stats.

KG is an absolute beast, but you don't realise just how good because you don't realise how much of everythign he does - and that's BEFORE you consider the intangiables (energy, communication, leadership, durability, good hands, hustle, effort level, etc).

Most importantly is that great as he is, Rondo still has flaws.  He's a poor free throw shooter, his jumpshot still isn't consistent enough and he does have a tendancy to gamble on defense.  These are all parts of his game that opposing players have a chance to exploit. Perfect example is when other teams double team off Rondo and dare him to shoot - while his jump shot has improved markedly, he's still yet to prove he can hit that shot consistently every night.  Likewise the Hack-a-rondo concept...he hasn't shown he can knock down free throws.

Garnett really has no flaw in his game that opposing players an exploit.  He has the ability to score efficiently inside and out, he's an exceptional free throw shooter, he's not foul prone, he's got good hands, he makes good decisions, he plays on both ends of the floor and he's a excellent passer out of double teams. 

It's that all-round excellence that allows KG to have such a huge impact on every game.  Sure, if he sits down you can replace him with a rebounder (like Sullinger) but then you lose the defense.  You can replace him with a defender (like Collins) but then you are at a liability on offense.  You can replace him with Bass (who is a solid offensive player and decent defender) but then you lose out on the boards.   There is no one player on the Boston roster who can replace everything KG does on the floor...not even close.

With Rondo on the other hand...Terry, Pierce and KG are all solid passers, so while we DO lose out when Rondo leaves, we don't miss as as we do when KG comes back.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2012, 06:01:16 AM »

Online BballTim

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Look at this Boston team right now - who really has the greatest impact on the game both on the court and off?

The answer is Kevin Garnett.  Last season he not only had the highest +/- on the team (and it wasn't even close)  but also one of the highest in the league.  His on-court presence impacts the team more than any other player. 

If you look at the stat sheet you might THINK that Rondo has a greater impact becuase of the sheer numbers he records, but KG impacts the game by doing all the things you don't see on the stat sheet.

KG is one of the best in the league at setting screens, his ultra-reliable jump shot (he shot 46% from midrange last season) forces opposing bigs out of the pain, he's one of the best passing bigs in the league, he never gives up on a loose ball, he blocks and affects shots, he's great at defending the pick and roll and he's the heart and soul of Boston's league leading defense.

Rondo is not far behind in terms of his impact, but I honestly believe that losing KG for a game hurts us more then losing Rondo for a game.


  Rondo also does a ton of things that don't end up in a stat sheet. But while KG is a great player, much of his "impact" came from being the only player on the roster over 6'8 that belonged in the rotation of a playoff team, one of only two decent players bigger than Pierce. (not meaning he's just decent, but that the big subs weren't) Hopefully we'll get decent enough play from Wilcox/Collins/Darko that we won't see the huge dropoff when he leaves the game, which would give him a lower plus/minus as well.

I think there is definite truth to what you say, although that 6'8 number is kind of misleading, Brandon Bass is 6'8 (which i know you also know), and he's a playoff rotation level big.

But what you said also kind of undersells KG; he's pretty definitively the most skilled defensive big not only in the NBA, but possibly since Russell, and anytime that guy isn't on the floor there is going to be a big drop off. While Rondo is a great defensive player, I don't think you could even definitively say he was the best defensive pg last season, let alone a transcendent talent on one end of the floor like KG.

Not to say Rondo isn't the Celtics best player; he is. But KG's +/- numbers are more than just an indicator of a lack of depth behind him.

  I didn't forget about Bass, I said KG was our only decent big taller than Bass last year and KG and Bass were the only decent players taller than PP. That has a lot to do with that +/- number. It's not a slight to KG to point out that the team was terrible with a shortish pf and Hollins or an injured Steimsma in the game. And while you can debate whether Rondo was the best defensive pg in the nba last year, you can also debate whether KG was the best defensive center in the league, Chandler was pretty good as well and Howard's usually DPOY when healthy.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 06:51:26 AM by BballTim »

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2012, 06:04:54 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Expecting GREAT things from Rondo...I believe he's ready to take that next step into the top 10 this season.

Arguably he's already there...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 07:01:50 AM by GreenFaith1819 »

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2012, 06:09:02 AM »

Online BballTim

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In terms of impact, it's KG by far.  The Celtics were no.1 on defense and no.27 on offense.  Without KG, heck, with even just an average defense, they would have been a lottery team.  That's basically all on KG.

As for Rondo's defense, I don't think it's very good because I don't think he tries mostly.  It was good his first two seasons but the past three years, he's given up penetration way too easily and more often than not, barely tries to rotate and contest shots on the perimeter. Maybe it's because he expends too much energy having the ball so much, I don't know.  Either way, in the 13 games he missed, their offensive efficiency was 1.7 worse but their defensive efficiency was 5 points better.

  I don't think that Rondo was the best at closing out perimeter jumpers because he cheats so much into the passing lanes but he disrupts opposing offenses a lot when he does that. I don't agree at all that he gives up penetration easily at all. It's true our defense was better when he was out with an injury but a lot of that was due to PP and KG playing so poorly earlier in that season because they came into the season so out of shape.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2012, 07:15:18 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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  I didn't forget about Bass, I said KG was our only decent big taller than Bass last year and KG and Bass were the only decent players taller than PP. That has a lot to do with that +/- number. It's not a slight to KG to point out that the team was terrible with a shortish pf and Hollins or an injured Steimsma in the game. And while you can debate whether Rondo was the best defensive pg in the nba last year, you can also debate whether KG was the best defensive center in the league, Chandler was pretty good as well and Howard's usually DPOY when healthy.

How about Wilcox?

When Wilcox began to pick up he was starting to become a very productive player for us, but even while he was out there KG was still just as critical to us - we still struggled to hold a lead when he sat down.

Stiemsma was also more solid then many people give him credit for.  He was a shot blocking machine, a reasoanble rebounder, and offensively he actually had a pretty solid midrange jumper.  There were times where he did more for us then Bass did, but again the second KG went out we went downhill.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2012, 07:57:25 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Another thing worth mentioning is that Avery Bradley had the same net rating that Rondo had.

Regular Season

Kevin Garnett
Off - 103.0
Def - 95.3
Net - 7.7

Rajon Rondo:
Off - 101.5
Def - 96.4
Net - 5.2

Avery Bradley:
Off - 98.5
Def - 92.9
Net - 5.6

So in theory the team scored 3 points per 100 posessions less with Bradley on the court than with Rondo on the court during the regular season, but they also allowed 3 points less per 100 possessions defensively with Bradley out there.

This especially impressive when you consider that Bradley only started in 40% of the games he played, which means that a lot of his time on the court was spend with the second unit (who were far worse than the starters on both defense and offense).   

Now I'm not even beginning to say that Bradley is a better player than Rondo - not a chance in hell - but just imagine what his net rating would have been if he was a starter (and playing 28 MPG) the entire season?  If you want to an indicator you can take a look at the playoff numbers, as Bradley started almost all playoff games intil he was sidelined. 

In 10 playoff games as a starter Bradley had a net rating of 15.0, which was WAY higher than anyone else on the team (KG included).

Playoffs

Kevin Garnett
Off - 100.4
Def - 90.8
Net - 9.6

Rajon Rondo:
Off - 99.3
Def - 98.6
Net - 0.7

Avery Bradley:
Off - 102.9
Def - 87.6
Net - 15.0

Just for the record, Ray Allen's playoff figures were:
Off - 98.6
Def - 100.5
Net - (-1.9)

So in the playoffs we were essentially 17 Points Per 100 Posessions better off with Bradley on the court versus Ray Allen on the court.

*sigh*

If only we had Bradley in that Miami series...when we have Bradley and KG on the court at the same time, our team is an absolute defensive force.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2012, 10:11:53 AM »

Online BballTim

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Another thing worth mentioning is that Avery Bradley had the same net rating that Rondo had.

Regular Season

Kevin Garnett
Off - 103.0
Def - 95.3
Net - 7.7

Rajon Rondo:
Off - 101.5
Def - 96.4
Net - 5.2

Avery Bradley:
Off - 98.5
Def - 92.9
Net - 5.6

So in theory the team scored 3 points per 100 posessions less with Bradley on the court than with Rondo on the court during the regular season, but they also allowed 3 points less per 100 possessions defensively with Bradley out there.

This especially impressive when you consider that Bradley only started in 40% of the games he played, which means that a lot of his time on the court was spend with the second unit (who were far worse than the starters on both defense and offense).   

Now I'm not even beginning to say that Bradley is a better player than Rondo - not a chance in hell - but just imagine what his net rating would have been if he was a starter (and playing 28 MPG) the entire season? 

  His numbers would have more than likely been worse. He didn't play much when the team was playing poorly but played a lot when the team was playing well. That will help his on/off numbers.


So in the playoffs we were essentially 17 Points Per 100 Posessions better off with Bradley on the court versus Ray Allen on the court.

*sigh*

If only we had Bradley in that Miami series...when we have Bradley and KG on the court at the same time, our team is an absolute defensive force.

  I agree, we'd have beaten Miami with a healthy Bradley.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2012, 10:43:59 AM »

Online BballTim

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I agree with both of those last two statements.

I think the big thing with KG is he is such a good all round player...there really is no hole in his game.   

He doesn't only defend at an elite level, he does just about everything at an elite level. 

Among all NBA Centers last season (per 48 minutes) KG ranked:
* 1st in assists (4.5 AP48)
* 4th in scoring (24.4 PP48)
* 9th in steals (1.44 SP48)
* 19th in rebounds (12.7 RP48)
* 25th in blocks (1.57 BP48)

Among all centers he also ranked:
* 1st in FT% (85.7%)
* 2nd in Assist/TO (1.64)
* 7th in 3PM (3)
* 9th in FG% (50.3%)
* 9th in double doubles (21)

That there gives him:
* 4 stat categories where he ranked top 5 at his pos
* 4 stat categories where he ranked top 10 at his pos
* 2 stat categories where he wanted top 25 at his pos

Basically you're looking at a guy who ranks top 10 among centers in all but 2 statistical categories (and top 25 in those) and that's just looking at simple stats.

KG is an absolute beast, but you don't realise just how good because you don't realise how much of everythign he does - and that's BEFORE you consider the intangiables (energy, communication, leadership, durability, good hands, hustle, effort level, etc).

Most importantly is that great as he is, Rondo still has flaws.  He's a poor free throw shooter, his jumpshot still isn't consistent enough and he does have a tendancy to gamble on defense.  These are all parts of his game that opposing players have a chance to exploit. Perfect example is when other teams double team off Rondo and dare him to shoot - while his jump shot has improved markedly, he's still yet to prove he can hit that shot consistently every night.  Likewise the Hack-a-rondo concept...he hasn't shown he can knock down free throws.

Garnett really has no flaw in his game that opposing players an exploit.  He has the ability to score efficiently inside and out, he's an exceptional free throw shooter, he's not foul prone, he's got good hands, he makes good decisions, he plays on both ends of the floor and he's a excellent passer out of double teams. 

It's that all-round excellence that allows KG to have such a huge impact on every game.  Sure, if he sits down you can replace him with a rebounder (like Sullinger) but then you lose the defense.  You can replace him with a defender (like Collins) but then you are at a liability on offense.  You can replace him with Bass (who is a solid offensive player and decent defender) but then you lose out on the boards.   There is no one player on the Boston roster who can replace everything KG does on the floor...not even close.

With Rondo on the other hand...Terry, Pierce and KG are all solid passers, so while we DO lose out when Rondo leaves, we don't miss as as we do when KG comes back.

  KG's a great player and we clearly missed him more than Rondo last year. But I think that you're glossing over the impact of a weak rebounding team having the 19th best rebounding center. Also, while he's a skilled scorer from the inside and outside, he's not much for creating his own shot. He's near the league leaders in %assisted shots at 80%. I'm assuming your top 3 scorers were Al, Bargs and Bynum. Their %AST were 53%, 69% and 67% respectively. So, while KG's a great player, he's not without his flaws at this point in his career.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2012, 12:24:37 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I don't think Rondo is trying to say what is politically correct or otherwise playing any other games.  What he said is just plain true.  He is not the leader of the team, doesn't need to be the leader of the team, and shouldn't feel he needs to be anything more than the team's point guard.  Rondo has it exactly right and good for him.  A lesser man would let all of this talk and notoriety go to his head.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2012, 12:43:22 PM »

Online BballTim

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I don't think Rondo is trying to say what is politically correct or otherwise playing any other games.  What he said is just plain true.  He is not the leader of the team, doesn't need to be the leader of the team, and shouldn't feel he needs to be anything more than the team's point guard.  Rondo has it exactly right and good for him.  A lesser man would let all of this talk and notoriety go to his head.

  He's one of the leaders on the court. He may or may not be a vocal leader but consider that when Pierce was Rondo's age he was clearly the best player on a team that didn't have any older KG/PP type of vets and he still wasn't the vocal leader, Antoine was.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2012, 12:59:20 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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  He's one of the leaders on the court.
He is the team's point guard.  I don't even understand what "leader on the court" means.  Is that different from leader in the locker room or leader in general?

Luckily for the Celtics, it sounds like Rondo understands exactly what he is.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2012, 01:47:43 PM »

Online BballTim

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  He's one of the leaders on the court.
He is the team's point guard.  I don't even understand what "leader on the court" means.  Is that different from leader in the locker room or leader in general?

Luckily for the Celtics, it sounds like Rondo understands exactly what he is.

  I was assuming you were making a distinction between being a leader on the court and off the court when you stated that Rondo isn't the leader of the team. Clearly he's as much of a leader during the game as anyone, I figured your claim must be based on what you imagine happens in the locker room.

Re: Rondo: "I’m not the team leader"
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2012, 08:57:24 PM »

Online billysan

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I guess for me I just read the whole situation a little differently. From Doc, KG and Pierce calling Rondo the leader all the way to Rondo denying it for whatever reason.

A couple of years ago the 'leadership' mantle was handed to the big three of KG, Paul and Ray. Paul was named team captain out of respect for his tenure as well as ability.

Rondo and Perk were left to prove they belonged on the court with the aforementioned three. Rondo did so handily and proved he was also a crucial part of the teams success.

Fast forward to this year. Perk traded, Ray left via FA, Paul and KG getting a little older. Lots of exciting new talent on the roster, much of it young and lacking championship experience.

I believe that Doc, Paul and KG are saying to Rondo " Hey man, we have a chance to be something special here" "come and take your place as one of the best three players on the team" "you have earned the right, you know the way we do things and it is your job to mold these guys into a winning unit" "you have the Celtic pedigree, time to accept the leadership role as the All Star PG who will take this team to the 2013 NBA championship"

Or I could be wrong.  ;D
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