Author Topic: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi  (Read 53830 times)

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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #525 on: November 06, 2012, 12:57:03 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Alright, here's the bombshell. Make sure that you're sitting down, everyone, Interceptor is going to blow this riddle wide open:

President Obama is a careful politician.

I have been saying that all along.  Thats why I think its a shame that people keep adding meaning to his statements that aren't there. 
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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #526 on: November 06, 2012, 01:00:16 PM »

Offline Brendan

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By losing their job?
Yep.

@nickagenta:

Bush paid a high political price for the failure post invasion of Iraq. Namely the 2006 mid terms and the wash out of republicans in 2008. But Bush didn't violate every premise of American foreign policy:

1. He had intel that Saddam had WMD - from State, CIA, and foreign sources.
2. He had UN approval for use of force.
3. He went to congress and got approval for use of force.
4. Saddam was in repeated violation of the truce we signed with Iraq to end Op Des Storm.
5. Saddam was given multiple chances to peacefully abide by the treaty and refused.

I agree it was botched post invasion, and even parts of the invasion. In retrospect, I'm OK with the reaction given what was known, but consider Bush responsible for the failure to secure a peace that maximized American interests.

Going further down this would be a side track - I only respond because you are acting like I'm a fool for caring about Libya, when I didn't care about Iraq, which of course I did and do. BTW Bush isn't in office and we don't have the Delorian from back to the future, and the Bush/Patreus surge quieted things long enough to allow for BHO to declare victory and pull out troops - so there is no possible way to effect that situation OR risk that Bush would repeat it.

On the other hand Obama went into Libya without any reason, half heartedly led from behind, failed to secure ANY kind of peace and resulted in a NET change that weakens American security AND prestige. WITHOUT Congressional authorization. Ever.

That is the fundamental American philosophy of military control: military serves the civilian gov't, congress declares war - executive executes it. The fundamentals of American Foreign policy are not static - so your claim that Bush violated them is absurd: Manifest destiny, the Monroe Doctrine, the FDR get involved every where doctrine, the containment doctrine, the end of history doctrine? Laughable - every admin brings its own philosophy of foreign affairs and can and should be judged. Obama's doesn't look very different from Bush's. We're fighting 6 or 7 active conflicts right now. Media just doesn't care.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #527 on: November 06, 2012, 01:03:48 PM »

Offline Brendan

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Alright, here's the bombshell. Make sure that you're sitting down, everyone, Interceptor is going to blow this riddle wide open:

President Obama is a careful politician.

I have been saying that all along.  Thats why I think its a shame that people keep adding meaning to his statements that aren't there.
False. If he just dodged he'd be a careful politician.

He didn't.

He had his administration go out and push a counter narrative: it was the VIDEO, it was spontaneous, nothing we could have done. (See S. Rice's talk show circuit.)

Then he lied - blatantly - in the second debate. Saying he called it an act of terrorism, he didn't he only said the US wouldn't tollerate terrorism, and he certainly didn't respond that way.

As for the theme that it was the CIA setting up a CIA thing - you don't think this is the kind of thing the president authorizes? You don't think failing to support these guys when they get in trouble will impact our ability to run covert ops in the future?

The guy is the oposite of leadership. Always someone else to blame, always some reason things are on the skids, always needs a bit more time. Pathetic.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #528 on: November 06, 2012, 01:27:49 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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On the other hand Obama went into Libya without any reason, half heartedly led from behind [...]

 :-\

Are you being hyperbolic here, or do you actually believe that?

False. If he just dodged he'd be a careful politician.
He hedged, which is also what careful politicians do.

Quote
He had his administration go out and push a counter narrative: it was the VIDEO, it was spontaneous, nothing we could have done. (See S. Rice's talk show circuit.)
Wait, what? I don't remember Rice saying that.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #529 on: November 06, 2012, 05:57:49 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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By losing their job?

He would be the first president to lose his job over the gaffe of fence-sitting over 'whether or not something was a terrorist attack'. Tough room, I guess.
If he really did give the order to commit to protect, Panetta should lose his job.  If he didn't, the people will soon decide if he should lose his job...maybe it is not considered that big a deal after all, that 4 Americans died after being attacked in an embassy...
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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #530 on: November 06, 2012, 06:55:03 PM »

Offline Bombastic Jones

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A Presidential scandal in the Middle East where it is accused the President lied, disregarded Congress, appeased terrorists, and then political officers (or perhaps CIA agents) died.  Are we talking about Iran Contra?

I dont believe Obama lied about anything, most people agree with me.  I do believe Reagan lied, most people (at the time) also agree.  Reagan's approval rating was pretty good when he left office.    I think Obama will be fine.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #531 on: November 07, 2012, 08:58:31 PM »

Offline Bombastic Jones

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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #532 on: November 07, 2012, 10:24:42 PM »

Offline IndeedProceed

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By losing their job?

He would be the first president to lose his job over the gaffe of fence-sitting over 'whether or not something was a terrorist attack'. Tough room, I guess.
If he really did give the order to commit to protect, Panetta should lose his job.  If he didn't, the people will soon decide if he should lose his job...maybe it is not considered that big a deal after all, that 4 Americans died after being attacked in an embassy...

I don't think the president being re-elected means the attack in Bengahzi (close?) wasn't a big deal to the people who voted for him or the people who kept their jobs. I do think a lot of people don't see it as an all or nothing issue at all though, and maybe some people see it like be, some mistakes in hindsight, some mistakes that were pretty clear at the time, and some misplaced criticism.

It's not a pretty affair, it will always be a black eye on his public record, but that doesn't mean it either disqualifies him for president or people don't care about it.

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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #533 on: November 09, 2012, 03:12:50 PM »

Offline Bombastic Jones

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If it ends up being as credible as birther stuff, there's really nothing you can do to change people's minds.

It will be really interesting if this results in Petraeus being ousted as CIA director because of the agency's malfeasance and he runs for the Republican nomination for president in 2016, as some people want.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

Why did the RNC and Romney get silent after the 2nd presidential debate about the Libya situation?

Maybe it has something to do with the person being completely at fault being Petraeus, a person who is decidedly Republican and looked at as a future power in the party.
Oh yes. I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy. But since Obama appointed him to lead CIA, he still bears culpability. And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign. Also why is he republican? He's a distinctly American hero, the man who led Iraq back from the brink. Who was sent to cleanup in Afghanistan without real domestic support, and the man who should of been Chair of JCoS, but took the thankless lead on CIA when asked by a dem admin. Has ever came out as a republican?

I really disagree with all that, aside from David Petraeus being an American hero, and not being an especially partisan politician type. Everything else there strikes me as baseless speculation and outright false characterizations.

Peeps are reacting like DP is some partisan politician, voting Republican is a big difference, especially since he's spent his life in service to the country. You guys are straight drooling over the opportunity to see a potential R fail before he's even a politician. The only political post he's held he was appointed to by a republican.

I have no idea where you get that I'm 'straight drooling' over anything. All I've said is that I agree Patraeus is a hero and not really a partisan figure. You're completely off base here.

Quote
On the other hand please identify my "baseless speculation" and [lies]

I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy.
-baseless speculation, there is nothing out there, either from the President's response or from anywhere else that has shown he is hoping to paint anyone as 'the fall guy', aside from himself.

And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign.
-false mischaracterization, or an outright lie if you like. Barack Obama has done many things well besides run a campaign. Securing what now looks like a CIA base of operations in Libya on 9/11 might not have been one of them, but your characterization is nonetheless, false. 

  Obviously his characterization isn't false, it's just an opinion that you disagree with. If you want to call it an outright lie you should have indisputable proof that it's not true.

Semantics. Barack Obama has done some things well as president. The spirit of the characterization is erroneous.

  Semantics? Really? "I disagree with you opinion, therefore I'm labeling your claim an outright lie"? Wow.

I find your opinion invalid because its premise is untrue. Or a 'false mischaracterization'. If you're going to summarize my posts, get em right, please.

  Which part of my summary do you think was false, that you disagreed with his opinion or that you labeled it an outright lie?

The opinion was based on a false premise, that's the part you have been missing in your 3 post rebuttal semantics counter argument. Or, would you rather advocate the position that Barack Obama hasn't done a single thing well during his presidency.

The whole thing at this point is silly, but there we are. The notion that Barack Obama has not done a single thing well this entire presidency as a supporting point to defending a non-attack on David Patraeus in a thread about Libya isn't a valid opinion.

  You might feel that it's not a valid rebuttal (and you may be right) but that doesn't make the claim any less true.

  Petraeus resigns over affair.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #534 on: November 09, 2012, 03:27:39 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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David Patraeus resigns over extra-marital affair

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/09/15054517-cia-director-david-petraeus-resigns-cites-extramarital-affair?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1

Who's buying this?

I'm not. A CIA Director that has an extra-marital affair and

1.) Can't keep it secret
2.) Has to resign over it

He is being blamed for Libya and this is his way out without disgracing a heroic military career.
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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #535 on: November 09, 2012, 03:31:05 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Not buying it either. This is DP falling on his sword for Libya.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #536 on: November 09, 2012, 03:33:41 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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David Patraeus resigns over extra-marital affair

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/09/15054517-cia-director-david-petraeus-resigns-cites-extramarital-affair?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1

Who's buying this?

I'm not. A CIA Director that has an extra-marital affair and

1.) Can't keep it secret
2.) Has to resign over it

He is being blamed for Libya and this is his way out without disgracing a heroic military career.
Did you read this somewhere, or is this just a fabrication?
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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #537 on: November 09, 2012, 03:36:05 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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David Patraeus resigns over extra-marital affair

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/09/15054517-cia-director-david-petraeus-resigns-cites-extramarital-affair?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1

Who's buying this?

I'm not. A CIA Director that has an extra-marital affair and

1.) Can't keep it secret
2.) Has to resign over it

He is being blamed for Libya and this is his way out without disgracing a heroic military career.
Did you read this somewhere, or is this just a fabrication?
I provided my link. He's resigning. My opinion is that I am not buying that it is because of an extra-marital affair which is what he said in his publicly released resignation letter.
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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #538 on: November 09, 2012, 03:41:19 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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If Benghazi is mainly the fault of Petraeus, I hope they don't let him slink away using this as an excuse.
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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #539 on: November 09, 2012, 03:45:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If Benghazi is mainly the fault of Petraeus, I hope they don't let him slink away using this as an excuse.
I would think it would be the right thing to do to protect a great military leader's legacy.
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