Author Topic: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi  (Read 54879 times)

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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #480 on: November 05, 2012, 03:26:01 PM »

Offline Brendan

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If it ends up being as credible as birther stuff, there's really nothing you can do to change people's minds.

It will be really interesting if this results in Petraeus being ousted as CIA director because of the agency's malfeasance and he runs for the Republican nomination for president in 2016, as some people want.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

Why did the RNC and Romney get silent after the 2nd presidential debate about the Libya situation?

Maybe it has something to do with the person being completely at fault being Petraeus, a person who is decidedly Republican and looked at as a future power in the party.
Oh yes. I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy. But since Obama appointed him to lead CIA, he still bears culpability. And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign. Also why is he republican? He's a distinctly American hero, the man who led Iraq back from the brink. Who was sent to cleanup in Afghanistan without real domestic support, and the man who should of been Chair of JCoS, but took the thankless lead on CIA when asked by a dem admin. Has ever came out as a republican?

I really disagree with all that, aside from David Petraeus being an American hero, and not being an especially partisan politician type. Everything else there strikes me as baseless speculation and outright false characterizations.

Peeps are reacting like DP is some partisan politician, voting Republican is a big difference, especially since he's spent his life in service to the country. You guys are straight drooling over the opportunity to see a potential R fail before he's even a politician. The only political post he's held he was appointed to by a republican.

On the other hand please identify my "baseless speculation" and [lies]

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #481 on: November 05, 2012, 03:27:38 PM »

Offline Brendan

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2. When was the last time a military general entering politics come out as a Democrat?
Clark.
Well, there's always the exception. Still. Most military leaders come out as Republicans if they go into politics. And Patraeus is a registered Republican.

Bigger question - who is to say he wants to go into politics? He's certainly had the chance to be more partisan - he could have told Obama to go screw instead of taking CIA. Seems like you are just excited that an American Hero might fall before he could possible become a compelling republican politician. That seems gross to me.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #482 on: November 05, 2012, 03:34:06 PM »

Offline Brendan

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Brendan I think your conclusions are not in line with most recent reports.
You may or may not be correct, IP, however the scuttlebut that I am hearing is that lots of people do buy into that train of thought and are coming to the same conclusion.  Whether or not Obama wins, this can not be good for him image and his credibility.  It will keep coming up like the birther thing.

You are basically calling me an unserious crack pot by comparing me to a birther. No matter what the broader context:  involvement in war was by choice, without congressional support, follow through was lacking creating huge security void, local staff asked for more security and didn't get it, Ambassador ends up dead. The specifics of what assets were available are still his responsibility. Buck stops there.

He wanted credit for the bin laden hit - he gets blame for this. I think the specific details will be less favorable then right now, you guys disagree - but even in a generous read for the prez, he'll look incompetent.

So then you give him credit for Bin Laden?

I actually agree with some of your thoughts, specifically; "involvement in war was by choice, without congressional support, follow through was lacking creating huge security void, local staff asked for more security and didn't get it, Ambassador ends up dead. The specifics of what assets were available are still his responsibility. Buck stops there."  I think Obama would partially agree with you too.  I have a problem with the huge leap you take from there.  Things like this are ugly, I dont think that means the original Libya action was a mistake or that there is some huge conspiracy afoot.  There is a lot of 'ugliness' in the history of American foreign policy.
He gets credit for making the Osama hit call for sure. He loses points for making it about "him" and not being gracious to the prior admin that developed much of the intel and the policies that made the hit possible, and for over shadowing the fellas in the field, and possibly endangering them. Actually in similar fashion my overall disgust isn't about what happened "it happens" as Gump might say. But the PR aftermath matters to the national security as much as electoral politics, and the national security component should come first.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #483 on: November 05, 2012, 03:51:48 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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If it ends up being as credible as birther stuff, there's really nothing you can do to change people's minds.

It will be really interesting if this results in Petraeus being ousted as CIA director because of the agency's malfeasance and he runs for the Republican nomination for president in 2016, as some people want.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

Why did the RNC and Romney get silent after the 2nd presidential debate about the Libya situation?

Maybe it has something to do with the person being completely at fault being Petraeus, a person who is decidedly Republican and looked at as a future power in the party.
Oh yes. I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy. But since Obama appointed him to lead CIA, he still bears culpability. And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign. Also why is he republican? He's a distinctly American hero, the man who led Iraq back from the brink. Who was sent to cleanup in Afghanistan without real domestic support, and the man who should of been Chair of JCoS, but took the thankless lead on CIA when asked by a dem admin. Has ever came out as a republican?

I really disagree with all that, aside from David Petraeus being an American hero, and not being an especially partisan politician type. Everything else there strikes me as baseless speculation and outright false characterizations.

Peeps are reacting like DP is some partisan politician, voting Republican is a big difference, especially since he's spent his life in service to the country. You guys are straight drooling over the opportunity to see a potential R fail before he's even a politician. The only political post he's held he was appointed to by a republican.

I have no idea where you get that I'm 'straight drooling' over anything. All I've said is that I agree Patraeus is a hero and not really a partisan figure. You're completely off base here.

Quote
On the other hand please identify my "baseless speculation" and [lies]

I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy.
-baseless speculation, there is nothing out there, either from the President's response or from anywhere else that has shown he is hoping to paint anyone as 'the fall guy', aside from himself.

And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign.
-false mischaracterization, or an outright lie if you like. Barack Obama has done many things well besides run a campaign. Securing what now looks like a CIA base of operations in Libya on 9/11 might not have been one of them, but your characterization is nonetheless, false. 

Also why is he republican?
-because as others have noted, he is a registered republican, but like you, I don't think this matters.

I'd also disagree that being head of the CIA is a 'thankless' position, but that's all opinion I guess.

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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #484 on: November 05, 2012, 04:26:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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First, I am not trying to besmirch Gen. Petraeus' good name. I have a ton of respect for the man.

Second, all I offered was a conspiracy theory as to why the RNC and Romney would get so quiet after the 2nd presidential debate. I have no idea if Petraeus is going into politics. All I do know is he is a Republican.

Third, information is coming forward the whole thing could have been a CIA operation. If that is the case, the first fall guy is the head of the CIA which is Petraeus. Again, that is if that info is true.

Fourth, there is definitely a reason that the Republicans got quiet after the 2nd presidential debate. Reports about how the attack occurred, who was available to back up the forces on the ground in Benghazi, and what that consulate was really all about starting coming out at that same time.

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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #485 on: November 05, 2012, 05:25:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If it ends up being as credible as birther stuff, there's really nothing you can do to change people's minds.

It will be really interesting if this results in Petraeus being ousted as CIA director because of the agency's malfeasance and he runs for the Republican nomination for president in 2016, as some people want.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

Why did the RNC and Romney get silent after the 2nd presidential debate about the Libya situation?

Maybe it has something to do with the person being completely at fault being Petraeus, a person who is decidedly Republican and looked at as a future power in the party.
Oh yes. I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy. But since Obama appointed him to lead CIA, he still bears culpability. And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign. Also why is he republican? He's a distinctly American hero, the man who led Iraq back from the brink. Who was sent to cleanup in Afghanistan without real domestic support, and the man who should of been Chair of JCoS, but took the thankless lead on CIA when asked by a dem admin. Has ever came out as a republican?

I really disagree with all that, aside from David Petraeus being an American hero, and not being an especially partisan politician type. Everything else there strikes me as baseless speculation and outright false characterizations.

Peeps are reacting like DP is some partisan politician, voting Republican is a big difference, especially since he's spent his life in service to the country. You guys are straight drooling over the opportunity to see a potential R fail before he's even a politician. The only political post he's held he was appointed to by a republican.

I have no idea where you get that I'm 'straight drooling' over anything. All I've said is that I agree Patraeus is a hero and not really a partisan figure. You're completely off base here.

Quote
On the other hand please identify my "baseless speculation" and [lies]

I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy.
-baseless speculation, there is nothing out there, either from the President's response or from anywhere else that has shown he is hoping to paint anyone as 'the fall guy', aside from himself.

And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign.
-false mischaracterization, or an outright lie if you like. Barack Obama has done many things well besides run a campaign. Securing what now looks like a CIA base of operations in Libya on 9/11 might not have been one of them, but your characterization is nonetheless, false. 

  Obviously his characterization isn't false, it's just an opinion that you disagree with. If you want to call it an outright lie you should have indisputable proof that it's not true.


Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #486 on: November 05, 2012, 05:32:29 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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If it ends up being as credible as birther stuff, there's really nothing you can do to change people's minds.

It will be really interesting if this results in Petraeus being ousted as CIA director because of the agency's malfeasance and he runs for the Republican nomination for president in 2016, as some people want.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

Why did the RNC and Romney get silent after the 2nd presidential debate about the Libya situation?

Maybe it has something to do with the person being completely at fault being Petraeus, a person who is decidedly Republican and looked at as a future power in the party.
Oh yes. I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy. But since Obama appointed him to lead CIA, he still bears culpability. And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign. Also why is he republican? He's a distinctly American hero, the man who led Iraq back from the brink. Who was sent to cleanup in Afghanistan without real domestic support, and the man who should of been Chair of JCoS, but took the thankless lead on CIA when asked by a dem admin. Has ever came out as a republican?

I really disagree with all that, aside from David Petraeus being an American hero, and not being an especially partisan politician type. Everything else there strikes me as baseless speculation and outright false characterizations.

Peeps are reacting like DP is some partisan politician, voting Republican is a big difference, especially since he's spent his life in service to the country. You guys are straight drooling over the opportunity to see a potential R fail before he's even a politician. The only political post he's held he was appointed to by a republican.

I have no idea where you get that I'm 'straight drooling' over anything. All I've said is that I agree Patraeus is a hero and not really a partisan figure. You're completely off base here.

Quote
On the other hand please identify my "baseless speculation" and [lies]

I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy.
-baseless speculation, there is nothing out there, either from the President's response or from anywhere else that has shown he is hoping to paint anyone as 'the fall guy', aside from himself.

And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign.
-false mischaracterization, or an outright lie if you like. Barack Obama has done many things well besides run a campaign. Securing what now looks like a CIA base of operations in Libya on 9/11 might not have been one of them, but your characterization is nonetheless, false. 

  Obviously his characterization isn't false, it's just an opinion that you disagree with. If you want to call it an outright lie you should have indisputable proof that it's not true.

Semantics. Barack Obama has done some things well as president. The spirit of the characterization is erroneous.

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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #487 on: November 05, 2012, 05:38:27 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If it ends up being as credible as birther stuff, there's really nothing you can do to change people's minds.

It will be really interesting if this results in Petraeus being ousted as CIA director because of the agency's malfeasance and he runs for the Republican nomination for president in 2016, as some people want.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

Why did the RNC and Romney get silent after the 2nd presidential debate about the Libya situation?

Maybe it has something to do with the person being completely at fault being Petraeus, a person who is decidedly Republican and looked at as a future power in the party.
Oh yes. I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy. But since Obama appointed him to lead CIA, he still bears culpability. And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign. Also why is he republican? He's a distinctly American hero, the man who led Iraq back from the brink. Who was sent to cleanup in Afghanistan without real domestic support, and the man who should of been Chair of JCoS, but took the thankless lead on CIA when asked by a dem admin. Has ever came out as a republican?

I really disagree with all that, aside from David Petraeus being an American hero, and not being an especially partisan politician type. Everything else there strikes me as baseless speculation and outright false characterizations.

Peeps are reacting like DP is some partisan politician, voting Republican is a big difference, especially since he's spent his life in service to the country. You guys are straight drooling over the opportunity to see a potential R fail before he's even a politician. The only political post he's held he was appointed to by a republican.

I have no idea where you get that I'm 'straight drooling' over anything. All I've said is that I agree Patraeus is a hero and not really a partisan figure. You're completely off base here.

Quote
On the other hand please identify my "baseless speculation" and [lies]

I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy.
-baseless speculation, there is nothing out there, either from the President's response or from anywhere else that has shown he is hoping to paint anyone as 'the fall guy', aside from himself.

And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign.
-false mischaracterization, or an outright lie if you like. Barack Obama has done many things well besides run a campaign. Securing what now looks like a CIA base of operations in Libya on 9/11 might not have been one of them, but your characterization is nonetheless, false. 

  Obviously his characterization isn't false, it's just an opinion that you disagree with. If you want to call it an outright lie you should have indisputable proof that it's not true.

Semantics. Barack Obama has done some things well as president. The spirit of the characterization is erroneous.

  Semantics? Really? "I disagree with you opinion, therefore I'm labeling your claim an outright lie"? Wow.


Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #488 on: November 05, 2012, 05:40:19 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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If it ends up being as credible as birther stuff, there's really nothing you can do to change people's minds.

It will be really interesting if this results in Petraeus being ousted as CIA director because of the agency's malfeasance and he runs for the Republican nomination for president in 2016, as some people want.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

Why did the RNC and Romney get silent after the 2nd presidential debate about the Libya situation?

Maybe it has something to do with the person being completely at fault being Petraeus, a person who is decidedly Republican and looked at as a future power in the party.
Oh yes. I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy. But since Obama appointed him to lead CIA, he still bears culpability. And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign. Also why is he republican? He's a distinctly American hero, the man who led Iraq back from the brink. Who was sent to cleanup in Afghanistan without real domestic support, and the man who should of been Chair of JCoS, but took the thankless lead on CIA when asked by a dem admin. Has ever came out as a republican?

I really disagree with all that, aside from David Petraeus being an American hero, and not being an especially partisan politician type. Everything else there strikes me as baseless speculation and outright false characterizations.

Peeps are reacting like DP is some partisan politician, voting Republican is a big difference, especially since he's spent his life in service to the country. You guys are straight drooling over the opportunity to see a potential R fail before he's even a politician. The only political post he's held he was appointed to by a republican.

I have no idea where you get that I'm 'straight drooling' over anything. All I've said is that I agree Patraeus is a hero and not really a partisan figure. You're completely off base here.

Quote
On the other hand please identify my "baseless speculation" and [lies]

I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy.
-baseless speculation, there is nothing out there, either from the President's response or from anywhere else that has shown he is hoping to paint anyone as 'the fall guy', aside from himself.

And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign.
-false mischaracterization, or an outright lie if you like. Barack Obama has done many things well besides run a campaign. Securing what now looks like a CIA base of operations in Libya on 9/11 might not have been one of them, but your characterization is nonetheless, false. 

  Obviously his characterization isn't false, it's just an opinion that you disagree with. If you want to call it an outright lie you should have indisputable proof that it's not true.

Semantics. Barack Obama has done some things well as president. The spirit of the characterization is erroneous.

  Semantics? Really? "I disagree with you opinion, therefore I'm labeling your claim an outright lie"? Wow.

I find your opinion invalid because its premise is untrue. Or a 'false mischaracterization'. If you're going to summarize my posts, get em right, please.

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Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #489 on: November 05, 2012, 05:43:50 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Semantics? Really? "I disagree with you opinion, therefore I'm labeling your claim an outright lie"? Wow.
I feel like we're in a very strange place when such a viewpoint -- President Obama can't run anything well other than a campaign -- can be defended as "an opinion".

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #490 on: November 05, 2012, 05:52:52 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If it ends up being as credible as birther stuff, there's really nothing you can do to change people's minds.

It will be really interesting if this results in Petraeus being ousted as CIA director because of the agency's malfeasance and he runs for the Republican nomination for president in 2016, as some people want.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

Why did the RNC and Romney get silent after the 2nd presidential debate about the Libya situation?

Maybe it has something to do with the person being completely at fault being Petraeus, a person who is decidedly Republican and looked at as a future power in the party.
Oh yes. I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy. But since Obama appointed him to lead CIA, he still bears culpability. And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign. Also why is he republican? He's a distinctly American hero, the man who led Iraq back from the brink. Who was sent to cleanup in Afghanistan without real domestic support, and the man who should of been Chair of JCoS, but took the thankless lead on CIA when asked by a dem admin. Has ever came out as a republican?

I really disagree with all that, aside from David Petraeus being an American hero, and not being an especially partisan politician type. Everything else there strikes me as baseless speculation and outright false characterizations.

Peeps are reacting like DP is some partisan politician, voting Republican is a big difference, especially since he's spent his life in service to the country. You guys are straight drooling over the opportunity to see a potential R fail before he's even a politician. The only political post he's held he was appointed to by a republican.

I have no idea where you get that I'm 'straight drooling' over anything. All I've said is that I agree Patraeus is a hero and not really a partisan figure. You're completely off base here.

Quote
On the other hand please identify my "baseless speculation" and [lies]

I'm sure Obama admin would love to paint DP as the fall guy.
-baseless speculation, there is nothing out there, either from the President's response or from anywhere else that has shown he is hoping to paint anyone as 'the fall guy', aside from himself.

And DP unlike Obama has actually done something well besides run a campaign.
-false mischaracterization, or an outright lie if you like. Barack Obama has done many things well besides run a campaign. Securing what now looks like a CIA base of operations in Libya on 9/11 might not have been one of them, but your characterization is nonetheless, false. 

  Obviously his characterization isn't false, it's just an opinion that you disagree with. If you want to call it an outright lie you should have indisputable proof that it's not true.

Semantics. Barack Obama has done some things well as president. The spirit of the characterization is erroneous.

  Semantics? Really? "I disagree with you opinion, therefore I'm labeling your claim an outright lie"? Wow.

I find your opinion invalid because its premise is untrue. Or a 'false mischaracterization'. If you're going to summarize my posts, get em right, please.

  Which part of my summary do you think was false, that you disagreed with his opinion or that you labeled it an outright lie?

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #491 on: November 05, 2012, 05:56:31 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Semantics? Really? "I disagree with you opinion, therefore I'm labeling your claim an outright lie"? Wow.
I feel like we're in a very strange place when such a viewpoint -- President Obama can't run anything well other than a campaign -- can be defended as "an opinion".

  That very strange place (to you, at least) is the real world. "There's a difference between a fact and an opinion" applies to everyone, not everyone but you (or IP).

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #492 on: November 05, 2012, 06:14:28 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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That very strange place (to you, at least) is the real world. "There's a difference between a fact and an opinion" applies to everyone, not everyone but you (or IP).
Wasn't commenting on the difference between fact and opinion, just amazed that The Big Lebowski Retort is considered a defense of a viewpoint like that.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #493 on: November 05, 2012, 06:33:11 PM »

Offline BballTim

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That very strange place (to you, at least) is the real world. "There's a difference between a fact and an opinion" applies to everyone, not everyone but you (or IP).
Wasn't commenting on the difference between fact and opinion, just amazed that The Big Lebowski Retort is considered a defense of a viewpoint like that.

  I wasn't defending his viewpoint (not that I really disagree with it), I was saying that disagreeing with an opinion doesn't make it a lie.

Re: US official dies in Libya consulate attack in Benghazi
« Reply #494 on: November 05, 2012, 06:58:51 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Apparently Obama can run a good foreign policy since Mitt has already admitted in the debates he will be doing everything just about the same as Obama.
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