Author Topic: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2013 offseason: Post-lottery  (Read 208309 times)

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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #300 on: October 01, 2012, 02:01:07 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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As much as folks don't want to relive the past, I do think it's important to learn from it.

Does *anybody* think the following trade is worthy of a veto?

KG + Odom + Artest + Bradley Beal for Steph Curry + Kendall Marshall?

I'm not asking if it's 100% even.  I'm asking if anybody sees that trade as so terrible that it should be vetoed?

To me, it was clear at the time that it shouldn't have been vetoed, and it's even more clear now.  However, when you let 35% of the league dictate what deals go through, that's what you end up with.

So, to all the vetoers...  are you man enough to admit you made a mistake?  And what's to prevent that mistake from happening again?

We ended up losing a good GM because of this crap, and caused permanent fractures in the league.  You guys really want to do it all again?


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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #301 on: October 01, 2012, 02:08:09 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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As much as folks don't want to relive the past, I do think it's important to learn from it.

Does *anybody* think the following trade is worthy of a veto?

KG + Odom + Artest + Bradley Beal for Steph Curry + Kendall Marshall?

I'm not asking if it's 100% even.  I'm asking if anybody sees that trade as so terrible that it should be vetoed?

To me, it was clear at the time that it shouldn't have been vetoed, and it's even more clear now.  However, when you let 35% of the league dictate what deals go through, that's what you end up with.

So, to all the vetoers...  are you man enough to admit you made a mistake?  And what's to prevent that mistake from happening again?

We ended up losing a good GM because of this crap, and caused permanent fractures in the league.  You guys really want to do it all again?

You're assuming it was only 7 of 18 who voted, Roy. It was 7 of the first to respond within 24 hours. That was a pretty instant and strong reaction, right or wrong.

There was also an opportunity to revisit the trade, and that too was vetoed.
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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #302 on: October 01, 2012, 02:10:01 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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As much as folks don't want to relive the past, I do think it's important to learn from it.

Does *anybody* think the following trade is worthy of a veto?

KG + Odom + Artest + Bradley Beal for Steph Curry + Kendall Marshall?

I'm not asking if it's 100% even.  I'm asking if anybody sees that trade as so terrible that it should be vetoed?

To me, it was clear at the time that it shouldn't have been vetoed, and it's even more clear now.  However, when you let 35% of the league dictate what deals go through, that's what you end up with.

So, to all the vetoers...  are you man enough to admit you made a mistake?  And what's to prevent that mistake from happening again?

We ended up losing a good GM because of this crap, and caused permanent fractures in the league.  You guys really want to do it all again?

You're assuming it was only 7 of 18 who voted, Roy. It was 7 of the first to respond within 24 hours. That was a pretty instant and strong reaction, right or wrong.

There was also an opportunity to revisit the trade, and that too was vetoed.

Vetoed by a minority of the league.  Plenty of people spoke in support of the trade, too, but it was the minority that won out.  At least a couple of those members mentioned publicly and privately that they vetoed the trade out of personal animosity.

Again, I'd like to hear somebody explain why that deal was so unfair that it should have been vetoed.  In hindsight, we can all agree that that trade was even, if not better for Edgar.


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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #303 on: October 01, 2012, 02:26:29 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Edgar publicly championed Curry as a cornerstone of his team (aka, virtually untouchable). In exchange for Curry and a 1st rounder, Edgar received Lamar Odom (mired in an absolutely dreadful year), a Kevin Garnett who was playing on the final year of his contract and rumored to be retiring, Metta World Peace (who hurts in about as many categories as he helps in), and a lottery pick in a draft headlined by Anthony Davis and a bunch of also-rans, according to most draftniks.

That was the way I saw it at the time. If Edgar had taken back some younger prospects instead of MWP or Odom and/or kept his own first, I might have felt better about the deal. At the time, it just made little sense to me.
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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #304 on: October 01, 2012, 02:36:01 PM »

Offline mkogav

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Heated discussions of a 10 month old veto'd fantasy league trade warms the cockles of my heart.

Mk
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 02:45:37 PM by mkogav »

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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #305 on: October 01, 2012, 03:00:36 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Edgar publicly championed Curry as a cornerstone of his team (aka, virtually untouchable). In exchange for Curry and a 1st rounder, Edgar received Lamar Odom (mired in an absolutely dreadful year), a Kevin Garnett who was playing on the final year of his contract and rumored to be retiring, Metta World Peace (who hurts in about as many categories as he helps in), and a lottery pick in a draft headlined by Anthony Davis and a bunch of also-rans, according to most draftniks.

That was the way I saw it at the time. If Edgar had taken back some younger prospects instead of MWP or Odom and/or kept his own first, I might have felt better about the deal. At the time, it just made little sense to me.

... and in hindsight, you were absolutely wrong.  It happens, but hopefully it's a cautionary tale about the use of vetoes.

KG continued to have a great year.  Bradley Beal looks like a stud.  Lamar Odom should thrive in LA.  Stepehn Curry missed the vast majority of the season, and currently isn't among the top-40 fantasy players as determined by Yahoo.  One player he ranks behind?  Kevin Garnett.

I don't want to re-do the trade; that would be ridiculously stupid on the part of nick and I, as we dodged a major bullet.  However, I do want people to actually think about our veto system, rather than reflexively voting for something that is obviously flawed.


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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #306 on: October 01, 2012, 03:06:58 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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You're assuming it was only 7 of 18 who voted. It was 7 of the first to respond within 24 hours. That was a pretty instant and strong reaction, right or wrong.

This is a good point.  The system stopped counting at 7, and it got there awfully fast.  No way to say it wouldn't have gotten to a higher number.  And, I don't even think there's a way to vote for not vetoing a deal.

Quote
Heated discussions of a 10 month old veto'd fantasy league trade warms the cockles of my heart.

Mk

This is a better point.  I hate to be a cockle-blocker but we're now beating the chalk outline where the dead horse used to be.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #307 on: October 01, 2012, 03:11:52 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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When Roy first approached me as being a co-GM I asked why. He explained some personal things to me and then said that his feelings were caused by a vetoed trade and told me the details of the trade.

As an outsider looking in, my first reaction was that I might be able to understand that the trade was vetoed because Roy's team was giving up too much for Curry, a player I consider a top 10 PG in the league but probably not a top 40 player.

Then he told me it was vetoed because the other GMs felt he was getting the best of the deal.

That surprised the heck out of me.

A top 25 player in the league.
2 under performing vets.
And a possible top 2-4 pick in one of the deepest drafts since the LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Darko/Melo drafts

for

A top 10 PG/but not a top 40 player
And a mid to late first round pick in that same draft where most considered the cut off for potential star players was at about the 10th pick.

That was my thinking when first explained to me.

Also, I have been in many fantasy football leagues and one fantasy basketball league, never been in one where a minority of owners could veto a trade. Now all but a couple of those were $50-200 buy in leagues so with money being involved people wanted stricter restrictions for vetoes because it could bite them in the ass in later years or later in the year and cost them money.

Now I am new here and just a co-GM but I think this is something that should be seriously considered by all objectively.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #308 on: October 01, 2012, 03:12:57 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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... and in hindsight, you were absolutely wrong.  It happens, but hopefully it's a cautionary tale about the use of vetoes.

Yep. Hindsight is 20-20. Of course, everything you just said could also prove wrong this season, Roy. [Also, had he stayed, Edgar might well have chosen Dion Waiters or Austin Rivers at #4.]

Personally, I don't think the process is flawed or broken. I don't regret my vote. At the time, it looked like a horrible return on a young star. I'd hoped resending the soup back to the kitchen might allow the cooks to spice it up a bit more to my liking, but that didn't happen either.

I do agree that the process resulted in some poor behavior on the part of some GMs, though. That I do regret.
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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #309 on: October 01, 2012, 03:13:02 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Quote
Heated discussions of a 10 month old veto'd fantasy league trade warms the cockles of my heart.

Mk

This is a better point.  I hate to be a cockle-blocker but we're now beating the chalk outline where the dead horse used to be.

So be it.  I'm going to continue to beat the skeletal remains of that steed so long as we have bad rules in place.


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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #310 on: October 01, 2012, 03:16:04 PM »

Offline mkogav

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Quote
Heated discussions of a 10 month old veto'd fantasy league trade warms the cockles of my heart.

Mk

This is a better point.  I hate to be a cockle-blocker but we're now beating the chalk outline where the dead horse used to be.



We have two weeks until roster cut downs. How else are we going to pass the time?

In honor of Season 3 of the Walking Dead, I say we beat this zombie horse for a good two more weeks.

Mk

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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #311 on: October 01, 2012, 03:16:32 PM »

Offline yall hate

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I have very little interest in wading into the veto discussion, because it is clear that there are opinions on either side and this many months along, those lines are not any more blurred. 

But is it possible, regardless of what is chosen, to have trades "pending" for longer then 24 hours.  There is no real reason (that I can think of) to have it be that quick, and having a longer time, I dont know, 48 hours, at least gives an owner who has something come up time to actually review and decide before the trade has already gone through?

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #312 on: October 01, 2012, 03:24:32 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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I have very little interest in wading into the veto discussion, because it is clear that there are opinions on either side and this many months along, those lines are not any more blurred. 

But is it possible, regardless of what is chosen, to have trades "pending" for longer then 24 hours.  There is no real reason (that I can think of) to have it be that quick, and having a longer time, I dont know, 48 hours, at least gives an owner who has something come up time to actually review and decide before the trade has already gone through?

A 48-hour window is a possible league setting, yes.
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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #313 on: October 01, 2012, 03:27:05 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Quote
Heated discussions of a 10 month old veto'd fantasy league trade warms the cockles of my heart.

Mk

This is a better point.  I hate to be a cockle-blocker but we're now beating the chalk outline where the dead horse used to be.



We have two weeks until roster cut downs. How else are we going to pass the time?

In honor of Season 3 of the Walking Dead, I say we beat this zombie horse for a good two more weeks.

Mk

I mostly just wanted to say "cockle-blocker"  :)


A 48-hour window is a possible league setting, yes.

I'd support this - it would help reduce the problem of owners not seeing deals before they've passed.  I don't know about anybody else but my Yahoo emails are sent to a secondary email that I don't use for many other things.  If I'm busy I'm not likely to check it daily.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! H2H Hoops League: 2012-13 season: Rookie Draft
« Reply #314 on: October 01, 2012, 03:27:38 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I have very little interest in wading into the veto discussion, because it is clear that there are opinions on either side and this many months along, those lines are not any more blurred. 

But is it possible, regardless of what is chosen, to have trades "pending" for longer then 24 hours.  There is no real reason (that I can think of) to have it be that quick, and having a longer time, I dont know, 48 hours, at least gives an owner who has something come up time to actually review and decide before the trade has already gone through?

A 48-hour window is a possible league setting, yes.

I don't like messing around with the trade rules, if only because it makes it harder to complete multiple trades around the trade deadline.



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