Author Topic: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013  (Read 26763 times)

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Re: Boussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2012, 12:08:25 PM »

Offline BballTim

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This is what it takes for a PG:

19 points, 11 assists, 4 rebounds, 35 mpg, 51% FG, 44% 3pt (2 per game), 92% FT, 63% TS, 58% eFG

  Does that mean that only one pg's ever been MVP, or that every pg that's been MVP has shot at least 44% on threes and 92% from the line? How about 11 assists a game? People should explain that requirement to whoever voted for Rose.
Yeah there's only ever been one MVP PG you got me.

....I was giving an example of the last pass first PG.  If you think 25 points and 6 made FT a game is healthier goal for Rondo next season more power to you.

  What about the year before, when Nash scored fewer points, had fewer rebounds and had lower fg%, 3pfg%, ft%, TS% and efg%? Was he unable to garner any attention in the MVP race?

Not much lower in a statistically relevant way, excepting rebounds.

But that said, nearly everyone agrees that's the MVP he didn't deserve. It got made right though in 06-07 when he did deserve one.

  3 points a game is statistically relevant. And "deserves the MVP" is fairly nebulous, kind of like "deserves to be an all-star".

Yeah the 3 points per game was significant.

But the 'deserves the MVP' that season wasn't nebulous at all. People just didn't want to give the award to Shaq. Shaq averaged 22 and 10 that year for Miami, and took a team that finished 42-40 to 59-23.

You can find about a bagillion articles about that 04-05 year. That, along with 2011's Derrick Rose are heralded as two 'we just didn't wanna put the right guy in there' awards.

  You could say the same about Dirk's year. Again, it's all nebulous. Nearing or at the ends of their careers, should Nash have as many MVPs as TD and more than Shaq, Kobe or KG?

Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2012, 12:41:38 PM »

Offline mgent

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Are we just going to ignore the difference between a declining Shaq and LeBron James in his prime (with a much older, much less assertive Dwyane Wade)?



The point is, MVPs are scorers.  Obviously I didn't have to bring up Rose to make that point.  Nash on the other hand proves you don't have to be a top scorer, you can do it with assists.  The catch is, he was still arguably the best offensive player in the league.  He did other things offensively than score and pass: he spaced the floor like Ray Allen, he drew lots of traps and double teams, and could draw the full attention of the defense from anywhere within 24 feet.

Now when it actually came to scoring, he's in a league of his own in terms of efficiency.  Rondo looks like a D-leaguer in comparison and has no hope of ever even coming close.  History tells us that elite rebounding and defense just doesn't make up for that.

If you're not taking enough attempts to be near the top of the league in scoring, you better be doing it better than almost everyone else if you want an MVP these days.  It's 90% offense, and Rondo simply isn't a comparable offensive player to Nash in his prime.
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Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2012, 12:49:48 PM »

Offline mgent

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If anything Dirk strengthens the case for Rondo not making MVP.  You can win simply by being a beast on offense and not doing much else at all.  We can talk all day about how good Rondo is as an overall player, but the award is only about one thing.
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Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2012, 01:29:05 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Are we just going to ignore the difference between a declining Shaq and LeBron James in his prime (with a much older, much less assertive Dwyane Wade)?



The point is, MVPs are scorers.  Obviously I didn't have to bring up Rose to make that point.  Nash on the other hand proves you don't have to be a top scorer, you can do it with assists.  The catch is, he was still arguably the best offensive player in the league.  He did other things offensively than score and pass: he spaced the floor like Ray Allen, he drew lots of traps and double teams, and could draw the full attention of the defense from anywhere within 24 feet.

Now when it actually came to scoring, he's in a league of his own in terms of efficiency.  Rondo looks like a D-leaguer in comparison and has no hope of ever even coming close.  History tells us that elite rebounding and defense just doesn't make up for that.

If you're not taking enough attempts to be near the top of the league in scoring, you better be doing it better than almost everyone else if you want an MVP these days.  It's 90% offense, and Rondo simply isn't a comparable offensive player to Nash in his prime.

Jason Kidd came very close to an MVP in 2002 (2nd to Duncan) averaging 14.7ppg, 9.9 apg, 7.3rpg, and 2.1spg, while shooting 39% fg, 32% 3pg, 81% ft.  Rondo could put up very similar numbers but with a couple more assists and a couple less rebounds.

While a long shot, I don't think it's impossible, what I think it would take:

Close to a full season for Rondo (ideally 80+ games, but at least 75+).

60+ wins from the Celtics.

A flat season from LeBron and Durant (only 55-60 wins, about the same stats from last year with maybe a few small declines, like LeBron only averages 26/6/6, and Durant only puts up 27/7/4, etc.)  Also a minor injury that keeps either out for 10-15 games also helps.  Could happen.  Especially if the LeBron/Heat aren't as motivated after winning it all, and maybe LeBron takes a few less shots to try to get a guy like Ray more involved, same with Durant if Westbrook/Haredn take a bigger role.

Several triple doubles and a lot of big time performances on nationally televised games.  (Like Game 2 vs Miami, do something like that at least 3-4 times on TNT/ESPN/ABC during the season).

And if all that happens, and Rondo puts up for overall stats, something like 14ppg, 11apg, 5rpg, 2spg, 50%+ fg, 70%+ ft.  I could see him finishing top 3, maybe even winning the whole thing.

But the stars have to be lined up perfectly, but everything I mentioned I think is possible of happening (Celtics winning, Rondo healthy, Heat and Thunder just being very good but not dominating, great stats from Rondo, and maybe with Ray out that happens, and status quo or slight declines from LeBron, and adding Ray maybe his stats dip).

Not outside the realm of possibility, but still not likely.

But while there are always exceptions, mgent is mostly right, 99 times out of 100, it takes a dominate offensive player.  I remember the talk about how Ben Wallace was a potential MVP candidate during his and the Pistons prime, the best he ever finished in the voting was 7th with one measly 1st place vote.  Kidd's the only other guy I can think of that wasn't the prototypical scoring machine that ever came close in the recent era.  But it could still happen!  :)

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Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2012, 02:35:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If anything Dirk strengthens the case for Rondo not making MVP.  You can win simply by being a beast on offense and not doing much else at all.  We can talk all day about how good Rondo is as an overall player, but the award is only about one thing.

  While I don't expect Rondo to win the award, I don't know that I'd call Dirk a beast on offense in a year when he finished 10th-11th in scoring.

Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2012, 02:41:54 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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If anything Dirk strengthens the case for Rondo not making MVP.  You can win simply by being a beast on offense and not doing much else at all.  We can talk all day about how good Rondo is as an overall player, but the award is only about one thing.

  While I don't expect Rondo to win the award, I don't know that I'd call Dirk a beast on offense in a year when he finished 10th-11th in scoring.

Dirk Nowitzki was the best player in the NBA in 2007, and the best offensive player.

You know..until the playoffs.

That notwithstanding, his offensive efficiency numbers were way above board, he was the best player on the best regular season team, and he was shooting 50/40/90.

When was the last time that happened?

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Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2012, 02:56:35 PM »

Offline makaveli

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if he stops pick-and-choosing games he wants to play he might pull it off
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Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2012, 03:00:01 PM »

Offline Change

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If anything Dirk strengthens the case for Rondo not making MVP.  You can win simply by being a beast on offense and not doing much else at all.  We can talk all day about how good Rondo is as an overall player, but the award is only about one thing.

  While I don't expect Rondo to win the award, I don't know that I'd call Dirk a beast on offense in a year when he finished 10th-11th in scoring.

Dirk Nowitzki was the best player in the NBA in 2007, and the best offensive player.

You know..until the playoffs.

That notwithstanding, his offensive efficiency numbers were way above board, he was the best player on the best regular season team, and he was shooting 50/40/90.

When was the last time that happened?

Steve Nash does it every year. But i think you meant to say, when has 7footer ever had those averages? which is never

Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2012, 03:01:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If anything Dirk strengthens the case for Rondo not making MVP.  You can win simply by being a beast on offense and not doing much else at all.  We can talk all day about how good Rondo is as an overall player, but the award is only about one thing.

  While I don't expect Rondo to win the award, I don't know that I'd call Dirk a beast on offense in a year when he finished 10th-11th in scoring.

Dirk Nowitzki was the best player in the NBA in 2007, and the best offensive player.

You know..until the playoffs.

That notwithstanding, his offensive efficiency numbers were way above board, he was the best player on the best regular season team, and he was shooting 50/40/90.

When was the last time that happened?

  I don't think Dirk was ever the best offensive player in the league, let alone the best player. And while he's a great shooter, I think people get way too excited about shooting over 90% from the line. In terms of free throw shooting in his (better) MVP year, I'd say that Nash shooting 92% from the line wasn't any more meaningful then the fact that he wasn't in the top 85 players in terms of fta/game.

Re: Boussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2012, 03:05:07 PM »

Offline drza44

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It's an interesting question.  Rondo is hands down not the most valuable player on the Celtics...that's Kevin Garnett.  But Garnett has absolutely zero chance at garnering national attention unless both Rondo and Pierce get hurt this year.  Rondo, on the other hand, is square in the public eye both nationally and among fans.  So, as ironic as it is, I do think Rondo is probably the biggest potential MVP candidate of this team...even though he's not actually the MVP of the team.

  Garnett won't get much national attention if PP and Rondo are hurt because he's really not going to be able to do much on his own offensively at this stage in his career. I think that KG's the MVP in terms of being the most indispensible because there's nobody else on the roster that can replace what he does but I don't think that's the criteria the voters use.

If PP and Rondo were both hurt, perhaps.  With this current team I think KG could carry them through a playoff series without both, but over a season the things he'd have to do would wear him down.  Point to you.

But I've actually been in the midst of a pretty in depth convo about what if Rondo or KG went down, how would it affect the team.  And as we've worked through the thought experiment, I'm on record that I think this Celtics team without Rondo (but if everyone else stays fully healthy) would win 55 - 60 games and be a contender for the crown.  But this same team, everyone healthy, but no KG would be on the order of a 35 - 45 win team and maybe get a low-seed for the playoffs but that's about it.

Thinking it through has actually been a pretty fun exercise.  If anyone is interested (or thinks I'm a fool for the estimated records I just posted), I'd love to get a similar conversation going over here as well.

Re: Boussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2012, 03:29:25 PM »

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But this same team, everyone healthy, but no KG would be on the order of a 35 - 45 win team and maybe get a low-seed for the playoffs but that's about it.

This team's big man rotation would be disturbingly bad without Garnett.

It's majorly worrying how little help KG has in the paint from his fellow bigs.

Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2012, 03:34:39 PM »

Offline gotjoker?

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I don't like Rondo's chances of ever winning the regular season MVP award.  Let's consider that Tony Parker averaged 18.3 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 7.7 apg and 1.0 spg in sixty games for the San Antonio Spurs this season.  The Spurs finished tied with Chicago for the league's best regular season record.  Parker didn't win the award.  Actually, he placed fifth in the MVP voting but did receive four first place votes.  Conversely, Rondo placed eighth in the MVP voting.  However, he'd received no first place votes.  Rondo averaged 11.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 11.7 apg and 1.8 spg in fifty-three games.

Steve Nash has won the MVP award for the regular season twice, 2004-2005 and 2005-2006.  Nash averaged a double-double during both of those seasons.  Like Parker, he'd averaged fifteen points or more.  Moreover, the Phoenix Suns finished the regular season with 50+ wins in those seasons.  Winning 60+ games the first time Nash won the MVP award.

With that said, Rondo would need to average well over fifteen points a game, at least ten assists a game and lead Boston to 50+ wins (probably, more like 60+ wins) during the regular season.  And even this might not be enough to beat out a player such as Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose or, of course, LeBron James.

Still, if Kevin Love can place sixth in the MVP voting.  Then Rondo could have a chance of at least placing higher than his eighth place finish this season.  However, in my opinion, winning a NBA Finals MVP is far more important than what you accomplish individually during the regular season.  It means that when you got the opportunity to excel you did so when it mattered the most for your team.

Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2012, 03:42:13 PM »

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Nash was greatly helped by his team hugely over-performing the media's expectations in both MVP seasons + being the leader of one of the most fun / exciting offenses in the league.

Like D-Rose, Nash was a media-favourite and an easy story to write.

Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2012, 03:49:47 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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A possible MVP for Rondo would have to be based on the Celtics winning more games (at least ten more) than generally predicted in a manner such that the media will credit the improvement to Rondo's "intangibles".

You'd really need to get the media talking about whether volume scoring is overrated.
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Re: Broussard: Rondo Could be MVP in 2013
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2012, 04:00:16 PM »

Offline wiley

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won't happen this year....but could happen in his career as he's capable of a significantly higher scoring average than he's yet achieved due the Celtics great balance...

Anyone other than Lebron deserving it for a few years to come will be due to Lebron being injured or losing his focus.....not likely.