Author Topic: Bass vs. Sully  (Read 18893 times)

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Bass vs. Sully
« on: August 22, 2012, 11:34:34 AM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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vs.



Awards

Brandon Bass: 2005 SEC Player of the Year

Jared Sullinger: 2011 B1G Freshman of the Year, First Team All B1G, First Team All American; 2012 First Team All B1G, First Team All American

DraftExpress comments

Brandon Bass:
Offense: More of an opportunistic scorer at this point in his career. Makes the most of his touches, and is only going to get better offensively considering his experience level. Gets most of his offense from post ups and isolations. Uses his quickness to blow by his man when facing up. Has great explosiveness at the rim, and uses his strength to create space. Puts the ball on the floor well for a power forward, and gets to the free throw line at a solid rate, where he shoots a very good percentage. Has a fluid shooting stroke, but is still working to develop consistency. Can knock it down out to about sixteen feet. Good catch and shoot player statistically. Can shoot of the dribble, and likes to when driving left. Does a great job timing up his duck ins around the rim. Gets good position underneath. Grabs his fair share of offensive boards. Likes to turn over his left shoulder, but isn’t predictable due to the fakes and pivots that he uses to get his man off balance. Doesn’t have a go to move just yet. Spins well in the paint, and can find the open man if the defense rotates. Can be turnover prone in traffic. Not a great passer. Doesn’t always have the size to get his shot off. Defense: Solid defender due to his strength and athleticism, but is severely undersized, and lives a little bit too much off his instincts at times. Can use his strength to front the post and his speed to cover players on the perimeter. Not easy to back down for most players. Great lateral quickness for his size. Shows some susceptibility to bigger players when he gets switched onto some certain centers. Halfway decent shot blocker due to his athleticism, but doesn’t have the length to get after everything around the rim. More of a one-on-one defender than a team defender, but has shown that he knows where to rotate when he has to. Not as foul prone as some players his age, but makes some mistakes. Good area rebounder, and will go after just out of his proximity at times as well. Not the smartest player in the world, but plays hard.
Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Brandon-Bass-53/

Jared Sullinger:
Sullinger is having a strong season both individually and from a team perspective as the centerpiece of Ohio State's offense. His scoring rate and efficiency are both up, as he ranks as the 4th best per-minute scorer in our top-100 rankings, making nearly 60% of his 2-point attempts, 45% of his 3s and 76% of his free throws. He remains a very good rebounder at the college level, rarely turns the ball over, and is getting more blocks and steals per game. By all accounts, Sullinger is producing like a national player of the year candidate, and should be firmly in the mix for most every award he's eligible for. Sullinger continues to see the majority of his offense with his back to the basket this season, where's he's one of the most dangerous players in college basketball. He works extremely hard to establish deep position inside with his strong lower body and low center of gravity, drawing plenty of fouls by simply forcing opponents to try and contain him in the paint. Patient, mature and extremely polished in the post, Sullinger backs players down with brute force and has excellent footwork, being capable of finishing with a jump-hook or spinning into a smooth turnaround jumper. He rarely finishes plays above the rim, usually using his excellent touch to finish plays with his skill-level rather than sheer explosiveness. This is what differentiates him from other top-10 candidate big men such as Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond or Thomas Robinson. His soft hands allow him to catch most anything that's thrown his way, making him an ideal (and very rare) target to build a half-court offense around. While not the most prolific passer at this stage, Sullinger shows good vision passing out of double teams, turns the ball over at an extremely low rate and rarely forces up bad shots, which only adds to his to his terrific scoring efficiency. Defensively, Sullinger is fairly effective at the NCAA level as the anchor of the best defensive team in college basketball. With that said, question marks linger about his potential on this end of the floor at the NBA level, mainly due to his average physical tools. Slightly undersized for a center and not especially agile for a power forward, Sullinger doesn't cover ground very quickly on the perimeter, and isn't explosive enough to offer much of a presence in the paint rotating from the weakside. He's very intelligent on this end, knowing how to bait opponents into take the shots he wants them to, and doing a good job contesting shots and bodying up opposing big men without fouling. His smarts and solid intensity level help him here, as does his above average length. Playing for one of the best defensive coaches in the NCAA in Thad Matta, Sullinger has surely learned plenty of tricks that will help him out at the professional level, but his upside here is a bit limited by his average lateral quickness and leaping ability.
Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jared-Sullinger-5029/




Seems to me like Bass has the edge in terms of athleticism, but Sully's basketball IQ is through the roof. I'm very curious to see which wins out, and whether Sully can perhaps work his way into the starting 5 by the end of this season, sending Bass to the bench in sort of a third-man big role. Things that are in Sully's favor to that end are his rebounding and defensive abilities, both of which lighten the load on KG.

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 12:45:30 PM »

Offline raynman

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Bass had great chemistry with the core last year.. No need to rush Sullinger.. He'll get there eventually..

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 06:04:58 PM »

Offline arambone

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sullinger could re-define the center position. Point center, surrounded by 4 shooters. He gives up some height, but makes up for it in a million different ways.

He's got 20+ pounds on melo, so he can go toe to toe with howard and bynum on both sides of the court, using his smarts, strength, and low center of gravity to hold his ground and then some.

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 06:53:31 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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to very different players with different game .  The good thing is it lets Doc mix and match the best player for the opponent that is faced.

I can see Sully and Bass being used alot, depending on the opponents lineup .   Doc can pick a lineup that will most favor the Celtics.   

With Lee, Green, PP, Bass and Sully , he can adjust the line up to fit the needs as they arise.

I'm not sure any team other than maybe Spurs has this much depth to put together so many lethal combinations of players on the court.

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 08:44:56 PM »

Offline Jon

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I think it's safe to say that Bass is the incumbent and that Sullinger is going to have to beat him out.  With that in mind, I think Sullinger beating out Bass is more complicated than pure talent. 

On paper, it seems that Sullinger should beat out Bass.  It seems he has a better post game, rebounds better, and also has a good jumper.  However, I see three potential roadblocks for Sullinger.

1) Will the Celtics utilize his post game?  This is of particular concern if he's playing with the starters.  If Sullinger proves that his post game translates to the NBA, that's great.  But if Doc isn't going to run many or any plays for him where he gets to showcase it, then it's a wash. 

2) Does Sullinger's lack of athleticism at the "4" mitigate the advantages the C's get with KG at the 5?  In other words, who guards quick 4s?  On top of that, will slow centers now guard Sully instead of KG?  And will the C's now lose all the mistmatches they had with KG at the 5?  While Bass is hardly Bill Russell, he is fairly quick for a power forward. 

3) Can Sullinger thrive as a role player?  Bass only excels at two things: hitting the elbow jumper and finishing around the rim.  But he's very, very good at those two things.  Assuming Sullinger doesn't instantly get featured in the offense, that's what Sullinger might be faced with.  By all accounts, he's a good jump shooter.  But can he thrive hitting jumpers when he's not a featured part of the offense?  Adjusting to being a role player isn't as easy as it looks.  Furthermore, can he finish around the rim as well as Bass.  While he's clearly more gifted in the post, when Rondo finds him under the basket, we don't need a series of moves, we need a hard dunk. 

To complicate all of this, I do think the Sullinger will have to beat out Bass by a significant margin to gain the starting role.  If it's just close, I think he stays on the bench.  With the new deal Bass signed, it'd hurt his trade value if within a couple of months, he's beaten out by a rookie.  I think if the writing on the wall in practice says that Sully deserves to start, Danny will potentially look to package Bass in a larger deal around the deadline.

To wrap up, I really like Sully.  When the C's drafted him, I thought Bass's time in Boston was over and I was OK with that.  However, I do think that it might be tough for Sully to get major minutes this year when everyone's healthy, particularly since Jeff Green will likely get some PF minutes as well.   
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 08:59:32 PM by Jon »

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2012, 09:01:47 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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I never understand this discussion, at all... Bass is PROVEN with his numbers in the NBA against the most ELITE talents in the world for YEARS, Sully has NOT even ONCE played! Comparing college vs. NBA is too funny... if that was a good thing to use, I can find you hundreds of players that were better than/close to Jordan in college, a lot of whom never translated their game to half of MJ in the NBA. Bass vs. Wilcox may be something but against Sully, it's not time to put them in the same sentence when talking about NBA.


With that said, I love our rookies potential and will be sad if they turn out to be duds (especially Melo, because I think he will be the biggest steal).
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2012, 10:19:56 PM »

Offline arambone

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I think it's safe to say that Bass is the incumbent and that Sullinger is going to have to beat him out.  With that in mind, I think Sullinger beating out Bass is more complicated than pure talent. 

On paper, it seems that Sullinger should beat out Bass.  It seems he has a better post game, rebounds better, and also has a good jumper.  However, I see three potential roadblocks for Sullinger.

1) Will the Celtics utilize his post game?  This is of particular concern if he's playing with the starters.  If Sullinger proves that his post game translates to the NBA, that's great.  But if Doc isn't going to run many or any plays for him where he gets to showcase it, then it's a wash. 

2) Does Sullinger's lack of athleticism at the "4" mitigate the advantages the C's get with KG at the 5?  In other words, who guards quick 4s?  On top of that, will slow centers now guard Sully instead of KG?  And will the C's now lose all the mistmatches they had with KG at the 5?  While Bass is hardly Bill Russell, he is fairly quick for a power forward. 

3) Can Sullinger thrive as a role player?  Bass only excels at two things: hitting the elbow jumper and finishing around the rim.  But he's very, very good at those two things.  Assuming Sullinger doesn't instantly get featured in the offense, that's what Sullinger might be faced with.  By all accounts, he's a good jump shooter.  But can he thrive hitting jumpers when he's not a featured part of the offense?  Adjusting to being a role player isn't as easy as it looks.  Furthermore, can he finish around the rim as well as Bass.  While he's clearly more gifted in the post, when Rondo finds him under the basket, we don't need a series of moves, we need a hard dunk. 

To complicate all of this, I do think the Sullinger will have to beat out Bass by a significant margin to gain the starting role.  If it's just close, I think he stays on the bench.  With the new deal Bass signed, it'd hurt his trade value if within a couple of months, he's beaten out by a rookie.  I think if the writing on the wall in practice says that Sully deserves to start, Danny will potentially look to package Bass in a larger deal around the deadline.

To wrap up, I really like Sully.  When the C's drafted him, I thought Bass's time in Boston was over and I was OK with that.  However, I do think that it might be tough for Sully to get major minutes this year when everyone's healthy, particularly since Jeff Green will likely get some PF minutes as well.   

Nice post. There are dozens of moving factors that will determine how things play out. Doc could even feel that Sullinger is clearly the better player, even from training camp, and still opt to start Bass for a number of different reasons.

If Sullinger had entered the draft last year, and the Celtics had traded into the top 5 to grab him, we fans would have been pumped up.

A better, longer version of Big Baby with better post game, rebounding, and attitude.

But KG is slowing down a bit athletically, and there are plenty of quick skinny power forwards prancing around the league. Brandon Bass is a better match-up against most 4's than Sullinger.

As many factors as there are in this equation, the biggest factor might be KGs ability and eagerness to guard 4s.

We know he wants to, and doesn't want to guard big centers.

Sullinger loves to body up guys down low and dominate them physically. His low center of gravity will be a weapon even in the NBA.

Taller, longer, and better vertical leap than Big Baby.

The GMs that drafted 10-20 are getting a bit hot under the collar wondering if Sullinger's success on the Celtics is going to cost these GMs their jobs.

But I think Sullinger at power forward might be like Marcus Cannon trying to play right tackle. Just a step too slow.

Like Al Jefferson.


As far as the question of Doc wanting to keep the offense similar to last year's, that will be interesting to see.

You would think that adding Sullinger's post game would be a welcomed addition. Balance the floor and use smarts to kick out and find the open man.

If for some reason Doc wanted to keep the chemistry of last year's offense going, Sullinger might make more sense coming off the bench, especially if Rondo is on the bench and Sullinger can make a Pierce-like impact as a point forward getting others involved from the high post.

When we see Sullinger standing next to Bass, it will be clear that Sullinger is physically on another level.

The biggest factor might be KG's ability or insistence on guarding power forwards instead of just centers.

KG might actually play a major role in the decision over who starts next to him, just as Rondo probably had a large role in deciding who would start next to him when Ray got healthy again and Bradley kept the starting job.

If KG decides the Celtics are better with Bass on the floor, Bass is going to start all year.

The second most important factor, out of dozens, might be whether or not Sullinger strokes the mid-range jumper in training camp/pre-season.



Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 01:08:27 AM »

Offline snively

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It'll be interesting to see how Sullinger fits with Rondo.  Those huge beefy screens will definitely come in handy, as will those big soft hands, but the sample size on that mid-range jumper is too small to judge whether he'll be more like Bass or Baby as a pick and pop guy.

That combined with his lack of speed, and his current ball-dominant, post-heavy offensive orientation does pose some questions about the fit.  Something like Terry/Lee/Pierce/Sullinger/KG might be the best line-up for him.

Still, if he can rebound the ball like a young Boozer, Randolph, or, drool, Kevin Love, his jumpshooting won't matter as much: we'll just need him on the floor as much as possible.
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Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 06:18:19 PM »

Offline arambone

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sully's known as a great cutter, so he should be great with rondo. Rondo bradley pierce garnett sullinger would be an extremely versatile offense.
5 guys that can shoot, pass, and handle, and can create for themselves or others.

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 06:41:28 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Bass > Sully... Will be for a while

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 06:44:40 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I dunno I didn't like the pick and saw that he clearly struggles against height and anyone with athletic ability.   I love his hands and nose for the ball.   But after watching summer league, I kind of cringe every time they call him a top five talent.   His outside shot is worse than Bass.   Bass is a better leaper but I think Sully will board just as well if not better because of his desire and zip sized rear.   Both are short fours as I see it with definite weaknesses.

I agree it is folly to think he will dislodge a proven NBA player.   Studs dominate summer league.   Sully did ok.   I think he will catch passes and finish from Rondo but I think he is a trailer and not a fast break finisher.   Trailers come down and shoot the jumper when the break breaks down.

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 08:28:25 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I do hope he does well.   I never mind being wrong when it benefits us.

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 08:59:27 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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I think it's a year too early for a debate between these 2.  Bass will be the primary PF with Green, Wilcox and KG pretty much getting the rest of the PF minutes.  If Sully cracks the rotation, good for us.

I think the best view is to look at this team as a 3-year collection since all the key players (except PP) are signed (or under team control) for the next 3 years.  I'm not expecting much out of Sully this year but next year I think he's going to be a key player on the team giving them the post scoring option they really need. 
I think this team is going to be in the title hunt for at least that long if not longer depending on how Danny keeps the talent stocked (and the youth develops).

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2012, 09:53:30 AM »

Offline TheRev72

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Not sure there's any need to play Sullinger at "center."

KG will start at center and should primarily be backed up by Wilcox, who has the size to play that position against most other backup centers. Collins will get spot minutes as well, based on matchups against bigger post-up centers (Howard, Bynum, Hibbert, etc.).

Sullinger will likely fight for backup minutes behind Bass. Green should see time there as well, when Doc goes "small" up front with Pierce-Green-KG. So I would imagine there might be 10 minutes a game or so for Sully. That's plenty for a rookie a contending team.

Re: Bass vs. Sully
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2012, 10:09:10 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Sullinger will likely fight for backup minutes behind Bass.
I can't quite see who he's going to fight. Right now, he's the default primary backup to Bass. Which is just fine by me.
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