John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?

[alajet]

I have always wondered how John Stockton dished out 15,000 assists and did not bother to check stats until today.
I have watched him play in his latter seasons and he always showed his class. It looks like, statistically and not just by presence, he was, even at the age of 40, was amongst the elite point guards of the game.
That said, the outrageous total assists mark he set remained a mystery for me.
So, I tried to draw a comparison to Rondo, who I believe to be the highest volume passer as of today in NBA and see how all those numbers stood out.
Rondo's ridiculous stretch beginning from March has an average of 13.25 assists, now lasting a month and a half. It's really tough to sustain that kind of an average even for a talent like Rondo.
Stockton himself had 5 consecutive SEASONS with better assist averages. Can't believe it. Such unreal consistency cannot be sustained for that kind of long periods. And if it can be, how?

I came to the conclusion that people who devalue him because he had Malone must be wrong. I think, from a different point of view, it was Stockton who made Malone one of the greatest scorers in the history.
Yes, he wouldn't have set that 15,000 mark without Malone, but would Malone score 36,000 points had he not have Stockton as his point guard?
What's your idea on this? And how do you think Rondo's veteran years will turn out to be? Could you see a model of consistency like Stockton, Kidd and Nash showed throughout years or will his game deteriorate much quicker?

[Kwhit10]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

[wdleehi]

I thought he was the Third best PG of the 80's/90's.


Behind Magic and Thomas. 

[alajet]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

Checking those home/away stats, there's an obvious distinction. But then again, win/loss splits are fairly on track with those home/away ones, and you always win more games at home.
Yes, this tells you that even if there was a partial manipulation in his stat sheets, his skills as an on-floor general are well beyond suspicion.

[Roy H.]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

There's a slight bump in terms of his assists at home, but it's not a huge one.  For his career, he averaged 11.2 assists per game at home, and 10.4 assists per game away.  Compare that to Rondo, who to date has a 8.7 home vs. 7.3 road career assists per game split.

John Stockton was an amazing player.  For whatever reason, he's become underrated, despite being the league's all-time leader in both assists and steals.  I think that's probably a combination of him not being overly athletic, playing beside another all-time great in Malone, and not winning a title or MVP.  There's no question, though, that he's an all-time great.

[Fafnir]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

For his career his splits aren't that big, only 1 assist more per game at home than away. I'm sure its somewhat true he got more chartiable scorekeeping at home but I doubt it matters in a historical sense.

[CelticG1]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

Ha I always see people say this about Rondo. How all his 20+ assists games are at home.

Isn't that probably true for any player at any level though?

[papa shuttlesworth]

Every player plays half of their games at home, so everyone's stats probably all even out.

[alajet]

I thought he was the Third best PG of the 80's/90's.


Behind Magic and Thomas. 

This, Magic and Isiah consistently being the stars under the spotlights,  may be the reason his career is somewhat eclipsed by other greats of his generation. More or less, it's a similar situation to one in which Drexler had himself left behind MJ for much of his life, despite a stellar all-around career.
Thanks for your responses, everyone

All I hope is rather than see Rondo getting traded away for a talent of lesser degree, he stays with the franchise to emulate a similar career to Stockton, in terms of consistency and longevity. I know I set the bar far too high, nearly out of reach, but I believe in Rondo's talent, too

[Fafnir]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

Ha I always see people say this about Rondo. How all his 20+ assists games are at home.

Not true anymore, he had one @New York this year.

Funny thing is that 3 out of the 5 20+ assist games for Rondo have been against the Knicks, the other two are Atlanta and San Antonio.

[bdm860]

While I hate the "he had Malone" argument.  One thing that probably did help a lot is how Stockton and Malone's careers lined up.

Look at a guy like Rondo at the start of his career, playing with Pierce, Allen, and Garnett at the end of their careers.  Rondo would probably be putting up even better numbers if Pierce was 25/26 (or Allen or Garnett was 25/26).

Or it could be like that right now in OKC with Westbrook and Durant (if Westbrook was a pass first guy).  Same age, drafted one year apart.  They should be hitting their primes at the same time.  This is what happened with Stockton and Malone.

Also not only did the Stockton/Malone combo line up perfectly career-wise, but they both had incredible health.

In 18 seasons together, they played in 1,422 games together, out of total of 1,444.  That's 98.5%.  Rondo has missed more games over the last season and a half than Stockton missed in his entire 19 year career.  Same thing with Pierce (or Allen or Garnett...).

Stockton basically never missed a game (over 19 seasons), and the primary scorer he played with never missed a game either for the 18 years they played together.  That definitely helps.

[BballTim]

I have always wondered how John Stockton dished out 15,000 assists and did not bother to check stats until today.
I have watched him play in his latter seasons and he always showed his class. It looks like, statistically and not just by presence, he was, even at the age of 40, was amongst the elite point guards of the game.
That said, the outrageous total assists mark he set remained a mystery for me.
So, I tried to draw a comparison to Rondo, who I believe to be the highest volume passer as of today in NBA and see how all those numbers stood out.
Rondo's ridiculous stretch beginning from March has an average of 13.25 assists, now lasting a month and a half. It's really tough to sustain that kind of an average even for a talent like Rondo.
Stockton himself had 5 consecutive SEASONS with better assist averages. Can't believe it. Such unreal consistency cannot be sustained for that kind of long periods. And if it can be, how?

 Keep in mind that the game was played faster back then. Some of Stockton's teams probably averaged about 20 points a game more than the Celts. If you adjust Rondo's numbers to Stockton's for number of made baskets per game the assist totals would be pretty close.

  A couple of other things to keep in mind. First, when Stockton was Rondo's age he was in his first season as a starter. So the years that you're talking about Stockton putting up good numbers mainly came when he was older than Rondo. Secondly, this is a strike year, and the team's slow start cut into Rondo's assist totals. If you look at what he's doing, it's similar to what he did last season before the injuries affected his play. Stockton also played in a strike year and averaged an assist a game less than he did the year before or the year after.

[BballTim]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

Ha I always see people say this about Rondo. How all his 20+ assists games are at home.

Not true anymore, he had one @New York this year.

Funny thing is that 3 out of the 5 20+ assist games for Rondo have been against the Knicks, the other two are Atlanta and San Antonio.

  I was going to correct you, as he has 5 triple doubles with 20 assists, until I checked and saw that allof his 20 assist games were triple doubles. That's pretty odd.

[fairweatherfan]

Stockton was one of my favorite players growing up and I patterned a lot of my game after him (that inside-hand scoop layup is a lifesaver for a smaller PG). 

Dude was absolutely incredible - his problem historically is that his skill was in being ridiculously consistent, durable, and efficient.  None of which translate well to highlight reels.  I've always felt he was better than Isiah, and closer to Magic than he gets credit for. 

In addition to the passing and game management, Stockton was a great outside shooter (52% career FG% while shooting a lot of jumpers), tremendous clutch player, even a good defender, especially off the ball (check his ridiculous lead in all-time steals too).  Unfortunately he's already being forgotten, because he didn't make many spectacular plays and, like so many others, couldn't beat Jordan for a ring.

[BballTim]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

There's a slight bump in terms of his assists at home, but it's not a huge one.  For his career, he averaged 11.2 assists per game at home, and 10.4 assists per game away.  Compare that to Rondo, who to date has a 8.7 home vs. 7.3 road career assists per game split.

John Stockton was an amazing player.  For whatever reason, he's become underrated, despite being the league's all-time leader in both assists and steals.  I think that's probably a combination of him not being overly athletic, playing beside another all-time great in Malone, and not winning a title or MVP.  There's no question, though, that he's an all-time great.

  I always thought of Stockton as always great but rarely spectacular. He was very consistent, remarkably so. But while people complain that Rondo doesn't always find that extra gear in the playoffs, Stockton didn't really have that extra gear.