Poll

What should the Celtics do this summer?

Bring back the same team.  Add mediocre help with MLE..
25 (53.2%)
Go after Deron Williams.
13 (27.7%)
Blow it up and target restricted free agents (OJ Mayo, for example)
9 (19.1%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?  (Read 9673 times)

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Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #105 on: April 07, 2012, 04:49:54 PM »

Offline RJ87

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There should definitely be a "none of the above" option on this poll. I think any plan this summer is not going to hinge on a singular player, but a series of moves... Not interested in Deron Williams at all - that whole Sloan/Utah situation really left a bad taste in my mouth. Yes Rondo has his own attitude issues, but let's not act like Deron is a little angel. Let him be Mark Cuban and Rick Carlisle's problem next season, which by allegedly what he wants.

As far as this offseason for the C's, I think you consider trying to package those 2 first rounders to move up in the draft a little. Let Ray Allen walk (or sign & trade him if there's a chance to do so) and even Jeff Green if he wants too much money, but consider bringing KG back to play Center. I can definitely see us in talks with some restricted free agents - OJ Mayo might be a possibility (a Rondo/Mayo/Bradley backcourt rotation is intriguing to me, I admit), but think we may target some bigs like Ryan Anderson, Jason Thompson, or even Michael Beasley (yes, I consider Beas a big.) There's also some interesting UFA's available, namely Spencer Hawes and Kris Humphries. And of course, there's always the possibility of making a trade and utilizing the capspace that way, or we could look to sign some 1 year deals and try to use cap to make a splash in 2013 free agency...

I think there's a lot of options, but I doubt Deron is one of them.
Quote
Ainge had mentioned he expects Rondo to get paid 'star money.' On that subject, Rondo said, 'I'm making star money now, really. Its a pretty good living. I'll let my agent handle those terms.'

You have to be good before you can be great. Build a team instead of tearing it down.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #106 on: April 07, 2012, 04:51:29 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit. 

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #107 on: April 07, 2012, 04:58:29 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit. 

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...


You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #108 on: April 07, 2012, 04:59:52 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Also, NBA championships aren't won through the PG, So why spend max money on one?

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #109 on: April 07, 2012, 05:06:14 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Quote
  Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

  So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.

  So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.

I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities: 

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

Quote
While watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.

Quote
Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall.  I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league.  The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian.  Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists.  Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there.   Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists. 

Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars.  Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing?  Who is coming off screens?  Who is setting screens?  How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does?  How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots? 

NOw... hopefully we never have to put Rondo in that position.  But Deron Williams IS in that position.  Signs point to him (or Chris Paul if we had landed him) flourishing if surrounded by three hall-of-famers.  I'd go as far as to say that Deron would match Rondo's playingmaking, passing and vision... and that his shooting ability would make things so much easier for the rest of the team that we'd more than make up for the small defensive gap.  The rebound numbers are system-related.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 05:12:02 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #110 on: April 07, 2012, 05:08:27 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.  

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...


You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
He's 26 right now.  27 next year.  28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.

Personally, I'd rather just make Deron an offer and move Rondo for an established allstar who plays SG, SF, PF or C.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #111 on: April 07, 2012, 05:09:10 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing?   Are we just making stuff up for fun?  In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger.   Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.

Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
dude, don't bother going there with making stuff up.  if you really think Deron is a better player, let me know how many triple doubles the guy has posted.  is that the only measure to compare them, no, but that's a pretty good indicator to Rondo's versatility as a player.

I noticed you responded to everyone else's comments and glazed over my original post.  You still haven't addressed those points.  here's the original post so you don't have to go back to page 4 to find it.  feel free to respond but at this point after reading your condescending, arrogant and quite frankly pig-headed responses to people who disagree with you, I really don't care what you're response is.  I'll probably get banned for saying that but it is what it is.

Bottom line, your thought process on this is not the slamdunk, foolproof, genius idea that you think it is.  There are other angles to it that people see and feel are sufficient to make an argument not to make this move.  People will disagree with you for purely basketball reasons, not personal, even though you've used a fairly personal tone when responding to those people.
-------------------------
ORIGINAL POST
The problem I see with this thread is that the OP has an inexplicable drive to get a franchise or cornerstone player this offseason and that it just has to be this offseason.  Nevermind the fact that the only one that MAY fit this description plays the same position as our (arguably) best player.

I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

The free agent market this offseason is not terribly enticing in terms of UFAs.  Next season has a much better selection of UFAs and players that are RFAs this year but will most likely be UFAs next year after completing their qualifying contract.

I can live with resigning most of our players for one more year and taking a shot at the next FA market when there's better quality and depth AND we have more money cleared for spending (and hopefully a better handle on our younger players to see if they're worth keeping or better as trade chips).  That year we could take a run at both Hibbert and James Harden (or Josh Smith) as FA's to go possibly go with Green, Bradley, PP on his last year and our (hopefully) productive youth.  Rondo's better contract gives the team another 5-6 million to spend in that scenario so I see that as the smarter move than signing Deron to a max deal.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #112 on: April 07, 2012, 05:14:04 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.  

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...


You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
He's 26 right now.  27 next year.  28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.

Personally, I'd rather just make Deron an offer and move Rondo for an established allstar who plays SG, SF, PF or C.


Why pay max money for a PG when you can win with

BJ Armstrong
Kenny Smith
Steve Kerr
Avery Johnson
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Platoon of Jason Williams and Old Gary Payton
Rajon Rondo
Old Jason Kidd


Oh, he'll also be 28 when that season starts.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #113 on: April 07, 2012, 05:17:00 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing?   Are we just making stuff up for fun?  In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger.   Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.

Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?

  Do you think that you're the only one that's ever seen Deron Williams play basketball? Can you explain why someone claiming that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing is making things up, but claiming that Rondo isn't a better ballhandling, court sense and passing *isn't* making things up? Maybe you're ready to admit that you've never actually watched Rondo play basketball? Or aren't you that brave?

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2012, 05:25:08 PM »

Online Who

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Signing Deron + trading Rondo ... seems to be the best value move, at least in the immediate sense (this summer), to make given the lack of quality alternatives with that cap space.

That said, I can't see why Deron would choose Boston over Dallas. I don't think it is a realistic option. The Celtics would need to trade Rondo prior to FA opening and make a big enough move to convince Deron that Boston is a better destination than Dallas, Dirk Nowitzki and Mark Cuban. Otherwise (trading Rondo after acquiring Deron), I think there is just too much uncertainty about Boston's roster for Deron to choose the Celtics over the Mavericks. 

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2012, 05:29:56 PM »

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I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.

Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2012, 05:30:20 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I like Rondo because I like the kind of team I would want to build around him: a sort of smarter, inverted version of Orlando.  Take a star who is a monster rebounder for his position and has a problem making free throws and surround him with four good perimeter shooters and put an emphasis on defense.  Except this time, the star is your point guard rather than your center.  It'd be better than the Magic because the offense would have more and better ball movement.

I also think that being desperate to get Deron Williams is about as smart as the Knicks being so desperate to get Carmelo Anthony that they would give in to ridiculous trade demands.
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Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2012, 05:35:11 PM »

Online Celtics18

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I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.  

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...


You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
He's 26 right now.  27 next year.  28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.

Personally, I'd rather just make Deron an offer and move Rondo for an established allstar who plays SG, SF, PF or C.

I've got a better idea.  Considering that Williams is the next Magic Johnson and that he improved from being the third best point guard in the league to the second best since this thread was started, we should sign him as a free agent and then trade him. 

That makes more sense.  People seem to be agreeing that Rondo's trade value isn't that high anyway.  Keep Rondo, use D-Will in a trade to get a star big.
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Dennis Schroeder/Ray McCallum
Tyreke Evans/Jeremy Lamb/R. Ledo
Giannis Antetokounpo/Darrell Arthur/V. Claver
Kelly Olynyk/Nerlens Noel/C. Jefferson
Brandan Wright/Timofey Mozgov/A. Nicholson

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2012, 05:37:03 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing?   Are we just making stuff up for fun?  In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger.   Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.

Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
dude, don't bother going there with making stuff up.  if you really think Deron is a better player, let me know how many triple doubles the guy has posted.  is that the only measure to compare them, no, but that's a pretty good indicator to Rondo's versatility as a player.

I noticed you responded to everyone else's comments and glazed over my original post.  You still haven't addressed those points.  here's the original post so you don't have to go back to page 4 to find it.  feel free to respond but at this point after reading your condescending, arrogant and quite frankly pig-headed responses to people who disagree with you, I really don't care what you're response is.  I'll probably get banned for saying that but it is what it is.

Bottom line, your thought process on this is not the slamdunk, foolproof, genius idea that you think it is.  There are other angles to it that people see and feel are sufficient to make an argument not to make this move.  People will disagree with you for purely basketball reasons, not personal, even though you've used a fairly personal tone when responding to those people.
-------------------------
ORIGINAL POST
The problem I see with this thread is that the OP has an inexplicable drive to get a franchise or cornerstone player this offseason and that it just has to be this offseason.  Nevermind the fact that the only one that MAY fit this description plays the same position as our (arguably) best player.

I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

The free agent market this offseason is not terribly enticing in terms of UFAs.  Next season has a much better selection of UFAs and players that are RFAs this year but will most likely be UFAs next year after completing their qualifying contract.

I can live with resigning most of our players for one more year and taking a shot at the next FA market when there's better quality and depth AND we have more money cleared for spending (and hopefully a better handle on our younger players to see if they're worth keeping or better as trade chips).  That year we could take a run at both Hibbert and James Harden (or Josh Smith) as FA's to go possibly go with Green, Bradley, PP on his last year and our (hopefully) productive youth.  Rondo's better contract gives the team another 5-6 million to spend in that scenario so I see that as the smarter move than signing Deron to a max deal.

Slamtheking, I saw your post... but it's tough to keep up when half the people in this thread are jumping down my throat.  Lol. 

Side note:  I've admitted this before... I don't pay attention to names of posters.  I honestly can't distinguish one person from another.  Aside from Roy Hobbs, you all kind of blend together into one person... so if I'm consistently offending one person in particular, that's unfortunately.  Today I started writing down names of people who apparently have an ax to to grind with me so I can make sure to be delicate in my responses.  So far I have slamtheking, nickagneta, BBallTim and Celtics18.  These are all users (who I have noticed so far) who called me out in some fashion, seem to have an ax to grind and probably could band together to get me banned.  Lol.

Anyhow... glossing over your insults I'll get to your point...  yes, we could just try our luck next year.  Maybe those guys don't get extended.  Maybe they do.  Even Josh Smith could see himself traded and extended prior to the offseason.  There's a lot of uncertainty there.  None of the guys you mentioned are as good as Deron Williams and we're taking a chance that they will actually be UFA.  Additionally, waiting until next year... you'd still have Rondo making 11 mil, Pierce making 15.6 mil (unless you cut him), presumably Jeff Green on board (making what?.. 7 mil)... some money tied up to Bradley and the other rookies... Who knows how much cap space we'd even have.   I'm fine with the "let it ride... see where the chips fall next year" plan.   MOst people seem to favor it (see the poll I added to this thread).

Judging by said poll, I'm in the minority here.  I freely admit it.  My opinions aren't popular.  But one thing I always believe is that you NEED a franchise player to win a championship.  As much as I love Rondo (and I DO love him despite what people must assume from these threads), I do NOT see Rondo as a franchise player.  He's an excellent PG.  He's top 6 in this league.  Three years from now he might not even be top 10 (Irving, Rubio, Steph Curry and Wall could all surpass him... Brandon Jennings is only 21... I wouldn't even be shocked to see him surpass Rondo.  You never know)... My point is, very shortly the offseason will begin and there very likely will be a franchise player sitting there in free agency.  My question was simple... do you offer him a contract or not?  I'd do it.  I'd have to do it.  Even if it didnt' work out, I'd still have my Rondo chip and my Deron chip... and those guys BOTH have a ton of trade value heading forward.  You see it as PG and PG... I see it as all-star chip and all-star chip. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 05:42:54 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2012, 05:38:51 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.

Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.


I loathe Melo.

 

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