Poll

What should the Celtics do this summer?

Bring back the same team.  Add mediocre help with MLE..
25 (53.2%)
Go after Deron Williams.
13 (27.7%)
Blow it up and target restricted free agents (OJ Mayo, for example)
9 (19.1%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?  (Read 23575 times)

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Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2012, 04:06:14 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.

so, no i wouldn't do that deal.


I really don't think you have an appreciation for how bad Deron's teammates are. And the fact that he's putting up the numbers that he is with the awful teammates is impressive enough.

On the other hand, has anyone noticed that Rondo has actually regressed this year? He's shooting his lowest FG% since his rookie year (.454%). His steals are slightly below his career average and below the 2.3 of last two years. His assists are on par with his career high, which is great. He's had two years with higher PERs, and his PER is only slightly higher than last year.


  Most players fg% varies from year to year, they don't stay the same or go up every year. That's not regression, that's typical noise. His steals may be down but his defense is as good or better than it was last year. PER is generally a stat that measures individual production, not necessarily impact, and it favors scorers.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2012, 04:07:11 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.

Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.

We don't have the best point guard in the game. Nor do we have the second best point guard in the game - that's Deron Williams.




  That's a pretty debatable claim, whether you realize it or not.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2012, 04:08:49 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.

  Shooting isn't nothing, but it isn't everything, especially for a point guard.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2012, 04:12:30 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.

In both real and fantasy ball, Deron is better.

How can you seriously use on/off stats to compare Deron/Rondo when both guys are on the court most of the game? It's totally misleading.

  How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2012, 04:34:37 PM »

Offline Daedalus

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We already have a star point guard.  Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.

There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record.  A max player should be able to do that.


Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2012, 04:43:10 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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We already have a star point guard.  Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.

There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record.  A max player should be able to do that.

Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.

Max players aren't just the guys who are really worth 40 million per year (MVP caliber guys), but also other elite players who aren't in that same category.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2012, 05:03:58 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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We already have a star point guard.  Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.

There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record.  A max player should be able to do that.

Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.

Max players aren't just the guys who are really worth 40 million per year (MVP caliber guys), but also other elite players who aren't in that same category.

Then there are guys like Rondo who are max players playing on less than maximum contracts. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2012, 05:50:17 PM »

Offline soap07

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  How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.

A very good point! Let's do that. Let's take into account how well they "control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates.

Celtics Offensive Efficiency: 99.4 (25th in the league)
Nets Offensive Efficiency: 100.1 (21st in the league)

So Deron, with far less talent around him, runs an offense that is better than the Celtics - which is actually among the worst in the league.

We could also look at individual production. Let me know which stats of those you'd like to compare either career or this year, because I know you won't bring up PER, WS/48, assist percentage, FG%, career turnover rate, FT%, points per game, etc etc.





Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2012, 05:53:57 PM »

Offline soap07

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Quote

  Most players fg% varies from year to year, they don't stay the same or go up every year. That's not regression, that's typical noise. His steals may be down but his defense is as good or better than it was last year. PER is generally a stat that measures individual production, not necessarily impact, and it favors scorers.

45% is bad for a guy who doesn't get to the line, hit his free throws and can't shoot 3's. I agree that FG% varies from year to year. And the years they are low for all players constitutes a down year. It's not just his FG% that is down either.

PER measures "individual production" as you said, and if that is down, that apparently that doesn't count as regression....okay? Also, he's averaging a career high in turnovers - which I won't kill him for though, he is averaging 11 assists a game.


Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2012, 05:56:07 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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  How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.

A very good point! Let's do that. Let's take into account how well they "control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates.

Celtics Offensive Efficiency: 99.4 (25th in the league)
Nets Offensive Efficiency: 100.1 (21st in the league)

So Deron, with far less talent around him, runs an offense that is better than the Celtics - which is actually among the worst in the league.

We could also look at individual production. Let me know which stats of those you'd like to compare either career or this year, because I know you won't bring up PER, WS/48, assist percentage, FG%, career turnover rate, FT%, points per game, etc etc.





The main reason they are better offensively is that they are a much superior offensive rebounding team.

Deron doesn't cause that.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2012, 09:45:27 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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What Deron does on that team is hardly a reason to bring him here....like Fafnir said...THEY REBOUND..and they are probably an overall younger team. Rondo does it all, and now he shoots well too...! He has INVENTED passes, most won't even be able to mimic, and moves....his main problems are that the rest of the team cannot run UP the floor, cannot rebound, and cannot return on the floor....look at what is happeneing with bradley now, another player who, like TA, can and will run with Rondo...BANG...unstoppable results.....look at how rondo used to setup Wilcox..GIVE THIS GUY SOME TEAM MATES WHO CAN RUN...and watch out..!

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2012, 09:50:26 PM »

Offline Daedalus

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We already have a star point guard.  Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.

There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record.  A max player should be able to do that.

Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.

Max players aren't just the guys who are really worth 40 million per year (MVP caliber guys), but also other elite players who aren't in that same category.

In my mind, there are max players -- guys who can carry a team -- and then there are elite players who get max contracts.  There are only a handful of the former, and a few times more of the latter.

If you already have a max player on your team, it could make sense to give a max contract to a player who is just elite.  Otherwise, I think it probably makes more sense to preserve cap space or get two or more productive players for the price of that one elite guy who can't really carry a team.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2012, 09:52:06 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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Deron is only slightly better than Rondo if at all...Why offer him the MAX when we have Rondo for another 3 years at about half that?

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2012, 10:07:36 PM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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   It would be bad business to break the bank to go after a PG who is only marginally better then the one we have.

  First of all Williams is going to be paid quite a bit more then Rondo.  It's about bang for your buck.  Williams even at his best isn't enough of an improvement over Rondo to justify spending quite a bit more money on him.  Williams hasn't been at his best since leaving Utah.  

  We have other holes that are going to need to be filled with the available money.....like maybe someone who can rebound the basketball?  

  Rondo is a very good player and a great value which allows us to try to upgrade in other areas that need upgrading more then the PG spot.

  Some seem to be convinced that Williams has a better shot at attracting other marquee players then Rondo does.    I don't really buy that.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2012, 10:23:39 PM »

Offline celtic -_- pride

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no. Rondo > Williams.

i feel like williams has hit the ceiling and rondo will continue to improve.
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