Poll

What should the Celtics do this summer?

Bring back the same team.  Add mediocre help with MLE..
25 (53.2%)
Go after Deron Williams.
13 (27.7%)
Blow it up and target restricted free agents (OJ Mayo, for example)
9 (19.1%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?  (Read 23706 times)

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Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2012, 12:48:39 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments.  My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought.  Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul.  I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism.  Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level.  It's not close.  So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.  

There exist statistics out there which could lead someone to believe that Rondo is as good as Deron Williams (WS/48) or perhaps better (adjusted +/-).  (But Chris Paul is better than either.)  Since Rondo is a couple of years younger and makes less money, that should make him more desirable even if he is slightly worse than Williams.

I will admit those stats have flaws, but I think they are better than PER.
Even so... this isn't about trading Rondo for Deron.  If the best player available was Carmelo Anthony, I'd say we should sign Melo and trade Pierce to the highest bidder... even if you believe (wrongly or correctly) that Pierce is better than Melo.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2012, 09:32:37 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I would much, much rather have Rondo
I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments.  My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought.  Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul.  I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism.  Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level.  It's not close.  So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.  

  The basis of this thread seems to be that your opinions are actually facts, and if anyone disagrees with you it's either because they're total homers or because they no less about basketball than you do. Those arguments must sound pretty compelling in your mind but they don't translate that well.

  Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2012, 09:43:37 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I honestly don't believe you would have to trade Rondo if you signed Williams.  You might have to for ego and personality reasons, but I don't think you would for basketball reasons.  Williams a fairly big PG at 6'3" 210 pounds.  He is also pretty darn strong and an excellent shooter.  He would struggle with the size of SG's like Kobe, but I think he'd be fine against most SG's given his build.  As an example, Bradley is only 6'2" 180 pounds and while he is more athletic than Williams, he isn't nearly as strong as Williams is, and people around here are fine with Bradley starting at the 2 guard spot.

That said, it would seemingly make more sense to go with Williams and Bradley as the starting back court and trade Rondo for a big man (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, etc.), who while maybe not as good as Rondo, would fit a lot better with the needs of the team.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2012, 10:13:46 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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I thought there was another alternative whereby we sign 1 year deals and enter the 2013 FA market, where Josh Smith is available.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2012, 10:13:46 AM »

Offline myteamisbetterthanyours

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You're retarded, First of all, id rather have Rondo (but thats besides the point)...

Why would u sign Deron Williams to a max deal when u have Rondo on your roster.. That just causes locker room turmoil.. KG, Pierce, and Allen would all retire if this happened.

You don't do this move from a loyalty stand point.. Loyalty is the foundation of Celtics pride, google Red Auerbach's wikipedia.. 

You don't sign another top 5 point guard, when you already have a top 5 point guard.  Get outta here with this garbage..

At this point, Celtics should be thinking about going for a need. Which is a Big. Who can rebound. Not another top tier point guard, when you already have a top tier point guard.

Go home.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2012, 10:19:11 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I honestly don't believe you would have to trade Rondo if you signed Williams.  You might have to for ego and personality reasons, but I don't think you would for basketball reasons.  Williams a fairly big PG at 6'3" 210 pounds.  He is also pretty darn strong and an excellent shooter.  He would struggle with the size of SG's like Kobe, but I think he'd be fine against most SG's given his build.  As an example, Bradley is only 6'2" 180 pounds and while he is more athletic than Williams, he isn't nearly as strong as Williams is, and people around here are fine with Bradley starting at the 2 guard spot.

That said, it would seemingly make more sense to go with Williams and Bradley as the starting back court and trade Rondo for a big man (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, etc.), who while maybe not as good as Rondo, would fit a lot better with the needs of the team.
I don't want Deron or Rondo forced into the off guard role much. Rondo doesn't have much offensive value off the ball and Deron is at his best on the ball as well.

If we were to sign Deron, at that point you need to move Rondo to somewhere better for him and the team.

Anyways its not happening, he's going to go to Dallas.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2012, 11:31:08 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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The problem I see with this thread is that the OP has an inexplicable drive to get a franchise or cornerstone player this offseason and that it just has to be this offseason.  Nevermind the fact that the only one that MAY fit this description plays the same position as our (arguably) best player.

I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

The free agent market this offseason is not terribly enticing in terms of UFAs.  Next season has a much better selection of UFAs and players that are RFAs this year but will most likely be UFAs next year after completing their qualifying contract.

I can live with resigning most of our players for one more year and taking a shot at the next FA market when there's better quality and depth AND we have more money cleared for spending (and hopefully a better handle on our younger players to see if they're worth keeping or better as trade chips).  That year we could take a run at both Hibbert and James Harden (or Josh Smith) as FA's to go possibly go with Green, Bradley, PP on his last year and our (hopefully) productive youth.  Rondo's better contract gives the team another 5-6 million to spend in that scenario so I see that as the smarter move than signing Deron to a max deal.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2012, 11:36:50 AM »

Offline manl_lui

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a hypothetical question: if we do end up getting Deron, how will the guard rotation going to be like?

Rondo/Bradley
Deron/Ray Allen (if he comes back for cheap again)

man that guard lineup would be NASTY

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2012, 01:36:02 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I honestly don't believe you would have to trade Rondo if you signed Williams.  You might have to for ego and personality reasons, but I don't think you would for basketball reasons.  Williams a fairly big PG at 6'3" 210 pounds.  He is also pretty darn strong and an excellent shooter.  He would struggle with the size of SG's like Kobe, but I think he'd be fine against most SG's given his build.  As an example, Bradley is only 6'2" 180 pounds and while he is more athletic than Williams, he isn't nearly as strong as Williams is, and people around here are fine with Bradley starting at the 2 guard spot.

That said, it would seemingly make more sense to go with Williams and Bradley as the starting back court and trade Rondo for a big man (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, etc.), who while maybe not as good as Rondo, would fit a lot better with the needs of the team.
I don't want Deron or Rondo forced into the off guard role much. Rondo doesn't have much offensive value off the ball and Deron is at his best on the ball as well.

If we were to sign Deron, at that point you need to move Rondo to somewhere better for him and the team.

Anyways its not happening, he's going to go to Dallas.
Billups and Paul made it work just fine until Chauncey got hurt.  I think Williams would be fine in the 2 guard spot and could easily take over Pierce's role in the offense (as Pierce takes more and more of a back seat).  From a basketball standpoint I think it would work well, but as I mentioned I'm not sure it would from all the other issues (similar to tebow going to the jets).

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2012, 01:49:08 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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I would much, much rather have Rondo
I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments.  My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought.  Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul.  I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism.  Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level.  It's not close.  So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.  

  The basis of this thread seems to be that your opinions are actually facts, and if anyone disagrees with you it's either because they're total homers or because they no less about basketball than you do. Those arguments must sound pretty compelling in your mind but they don't translate that well.

  Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.


Beautiful. TP
CB Draft 2016:
PG:Tony Parker/Mo Williams
SG:Alec Burks/Manu Ginobili
SF:Al Farouq-Aminu/Jared Dudley/Tony Snell
PF:Dirk Nowitzki/JaMychal Green
C: Deandre Jordan/Roy Hibbert/Alex Len

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2012, 01:55:42 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Billups and Paul made it work just fine until Chauncey got hurt.  I think Williams would be fine in the 2 guard spot and could easily take over Pierce's role in the offense (as Pierce takes more and more of a back seat).  From a basketball standpoint I think it would work well, but as I mentioned I'm not sure it would from all the other issues (similar to tebow going to the jets).
I think Deron has a lot more to offer at his primary position than did Chauncey at this point.

Plus just from a salary cap perspective Chauncey was a low cost solution to their SG woes, Rondo or Williams would both be very expensive players who both are at their best with the ball in control of the offense.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2012, 02:16:27 PM »

Offline soap07

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I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.

Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.

We don't have the best point guard in the game. Nor do we have the second best point guard in the game - that's Deron Williams.



Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2012, 02:27:39 PM »

Offline soap07

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I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.

so, no i wouldn't do that deal.


I really don't think you have an appreciation for how bad Deron's teammates are. And the fact that he's putting up the numbers that he is with the awful teammates is impressive enough.

On the other hand, has anyone noticed that Rondo has actually regressed this year? He's shooting his lowest FG% since his rookie year (.454%). His steals are slightly below his career average and below the 2.3 of last two years. His assists are on par with his career high, which is great. He's had two years with higher PERs, and his PER is only slightly higher than last year.

12.4 points on 11.2 shots a game isn't great either.

For those that love sabremetric stats - his WS/48 is the lowest since his rookie year.

Yeah, he has his days when he's the best point guard in the league. But overall, please give me Deron.


Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2012, 02:31:53 PM »

Offline soap07

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Quote
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2012, 02:35:01 PM »

Offline soap07

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Quote
  Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.

In both real and fantasy ball, Deron is better.

How can you seriously use on/off stats to compare Deron/Rondo when both guys are on the court most of the game? It's totally misleading.