The Less Rondo the Better

[nickagneta]

This stance is nothing but trolling. The man was a warrior and played in serious pain for the better part of two quarters. By the end he could barely push off to explode on the ball. He had severe lower back pain.

I applaud his effort knowing that he did everything possible to win and that Rondo at 25% is 10 times better than Dooling or Moore at 100%, which were the only other options left to Doc.

[snively]

Frankly I'd say what's delusional is claiming that a player that tries to finish out a game when he's too injured to move around well doesn't care. Too bad you weren't posting here after his elbow injury in the playoffs, I would have loved your posts about how he wasn't going to the left enough after that happened.

You're posts are as weak as your analysis Tim.  You back up nothing.  All anecdotal and using stats for situations I never referenced.

The fact is, Rondo was able to at least run after he got hurt.  We all saw it.  He didn't just go from top of the key to top of the key.  He ran around... when he wanted to.  

Anyone who's sane can see that on that last Novak three he just quit.  Yeah, that's being a "warrior."  If Rondo had at least attempted to stay with Novak, you might have a leg to stand on.  If he were picked, you'd have a leg to stand on.

The guy just STOOD THERE.  He didn't even try.  During crunch time!  Down only seven!  

Sure, do it when you're down 16.  Do it if there's only :30 left in the game.  But the Celts were making a run.  They were coming back.  And Rondo punked out.  He's done it before.  He just doesn't like playing what anyone who ever played organized ball knows as "fundamental defense."  He just doesn't.

He attempted to call out a switch with Pierce.  Who knows whether he was supposed to or not, but it's a perfectly legitimate defensive technique, just executed poorly by one or both players in this case.

Bradley's hyper-frenetic defensive activity on his man is extremely endearing to those of us who like to see the drive to win in its rawest form, but it's not the only way to play defense and it's certainly not the only way the C's play defense.  You can use your teammates too, especially in the quasi-zones the Celtics have been using this season.

[the_Bird]

I just watched the clip of that play about twenty times (twenty times more than I wanted to), and it looks the same to me every time; Rondo knows that he's going to get picked, so he calls out the switch to Pierce.  Pierce doesn't close out on Novak, either due to missed communication on the call or because he was gassed himself (Pierce played 43 minutes, the third-most he's played all season).  

How you use that play as evidence of Rondo's laziness...   well, I'm starting to concur with the "trolling" hypothesis.

And, if Rondo's so "lazy", why's he jumping into the 1st row to contest Novak's previous 3, a whole 20 seconds before the play being discussed?  In those twenty seconds, Rondo decided "to hell with this, let's just go home"? 

[BballTim]

If Doc wants him out of the game then he should put someone else in. Rondo's a warrior, he's going to do what he can to help the team win. I don't see the point in attacking Rondo for trying to fight through an injury.

Exactly.  Doc should take him out of the game when he goes into "tired mode."

 His ball denial defense is about as good as you'll see from a point guard. He doesn't always stick with his man but he's also very disruptive to opposing offenses when he cheats off his man to help out.

All subjective. And even you admit "he doesn't always stick with his man."  But a lot of time it's not to double-team someone else.  It's just to stand and watch.  And sometimes to watch his man hit a three.

 From synergysports, when Rondo's opponent isolates him, that player scores about .58ppp, compared to .78 for Bradley or (ahem) 1.12 for West. .58ppp is fairly smothering defense.

Again, this is just in iso situations where you use this stat.  Rondo let's himself get picked so easily that it's no longer an iso situation.  Also, Bradley is usually covering the team's best guard so of course he's going to have more points scored against him.  Doc puts Rondo on the other team's weakest offensive player much of the time.  Or the one least likely to drive.  Guys who just like to shoot spot-up threes (like Novak). 

  Again, you talk about watching games, but it's fairly rare that people playing against Rondo have big games, and the players he guards seem to score a lot of their points when Rondo is either out of the game or covering someone else.

  Ahem, have you ever seen what Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, and Russell Westbrook do to Rondo when he tries to cover them?  BIG GAMES!  But like I said, most times Doc realizes this and puts Rondo on the shooting guards for these teams.  Just like he had Rondo on Novak last night.

You talk about people being blind, but the case is your viewing is very selective. If Rondo's man scores because Rondo wasn't playing great defense, you take notice. If that man goes the next 7-8 possessions without doing a thing, it's like those plays never happened.

When Rondo's man doesn't score the next 7-8 possessions it's not always because he is playing "good defense."  It's because they were able to drive and dish.  But whatever, that's such an anecdotal thing to say.  You don't show specifics with that statement.  Just what you think you remember.

I'm talking about two specific plays last night, and asked folks to watch for these types of plays in future games, where Rondo just laid down and gave up.  And it wasn't because he was injured.  He was running around on offense and on other defensive possessions.  Here he just quit.  I don't see Paul Pierce doing that.  Or Bradley.  Or KG.  Or Ray.  They don't just stand there and point like Rondo's prima donna self "ooh, oooh, my man is running free."

He wasn't even picked at all on that last Novak three.  Chandler was three feet away from him.  Rondo actually ran into Chandler well after Novak was at the three point line to make it look like he got picked.

Weak.

  Whatever. It's not just iso situations where Rondo excels, his numbers are very good for all the possessions he's involved in. It's not the case that Rondo's man doesn't score because he's dishing the ball, Rondo's always among the best for point guards for fewest assists per game allowed. Pretty much every statistic that I see says the opposite of your opinion. Congratulations on finding a couple of bad defensive plays by Rondo when he's playing injured, clearly that means more than all of the evidence to the contrary. Rondo's not a perfect defender, but he's about as good as you'll see.

[No Nickname]

I just watched the clip of that play about twenty times (twenty times more than I wanted to), and it looks the same to me every time; Rondo knows that he's going to get picked, so he calls out the switch to Pierce.  Pierce doesn't close out on Novak, either due to missed communication on the call or because he was gassed himself (Pierce played 43 minutes, the third-most he's played all season).  

How you use that play as evidence of Rondo's laziness...   well, I'm starting to concur with the "trolling" hypothesis.

And, if Rondo's so "lazy", why's he jumping into the 1st row to contest Novak's previous 3, a whole 20 seconds before the play being discussed?  In those twenty seconds, Rondo decided "to hell with this, let's just go home"? 

Having a contrary point of view is considered trolling?  Really?  Just because you (and many) posters don't agree with it?  Come on, man.

On the possession where Rondo "jumped into the first row" he also just stood around watching the NBA's best three point shooter spot up on the sideline.  He was way to far off of him.  And at the last moment decided to try to disrupt the shot.

For everyone that says "Rondo was a warrior and was so hurt he could barely walk" then how could he "jump into the first row?"  That's totally contradicting yourself.

I'm not trying to troll.  And this isn't the only time Rondo has done this.  He plays this way when he's not hurt.

All I'll say, and I say it respectfully to you and BBall Tim, is that I don't believe he plays good fundamental defense.  I think he takes a lot of plays off. 

And I'm not "wowed" by Bradley's frenetic defense, thinking just because you play up tight and move your feet like a jitterbug that you're playing "great defense."  Bradley gets out of position all the time due to not knowing angles or losing focus.

My criticism with Rondo is that he knows how to play good defense.  And does it often.  But he also gets lazy and just lets himself get picked without fighting through screens.  And lets his man get wide open threes all the time. 

I won't argue the point any more.  I'm not trying to start a fight.  Just discussion.  I watched the game with several others and they all agreed when we rewound several plays, even before Rondo got hurt, that he just walks around on defense a lot.

It's your right to disagree!  It's my right to too.

[Roy H.]

To all: Enough with the bickering and "troll" talk.  Disagree civilly, or move on.

[BballTim]

I won't argue the point any more.  I'm not trying to start a fight.  Just discussion.  I watched the game with several others and they all agreed when we rewound several plays, even before Rondo got hurt, that he just walks around on defense a lot.

[Edited.]

[No Nickname]

I won't argue the point any more.  I'm not trying to start a fight.  Just discussion.  I watched the game with several others and they all agreed when we rewound several plays, even before Rondo got hurt, that he just walks around on defense a lot.

  Haha. So you actually watch games with a group of friends looking for plays where Rondo's defense is bad?  I'll go out on a limb and say it's unlikely that I'm the only person that's not surprised by this. Sounds like unbiased observations to me...

[Edited.]

Name-calling and ignoring moderator warnings are not permitted under any circumstances.

[Roy H.]

Enjoy the suspensions, guys.  Next time a moderator asks you to behave civilly, pay attention.

[KCattheStripe]

[LarBrd33]

Rondo is an outstanding point guard.  His role is clearly defined here.  In this system... right now... he's a good fit.  The other 4 starters (Ray/Bradley, Pierce, KG and Bass) are all capable of hitting shots (Bradley is a recent revelation that hopefully isn't just streaking)... so Rondo can get away with being a poor shooter and focus primarily on being a setup man.  He excels in the role.  If his teammates keep shooting the way they are shooting, Rondo should have no trouble keeping his assist numbers up.  

I think these stats might just be skewed by the fact that when Rondo missed games, we won 6 of 8.  The thing is, even with how well Rondo plays as a "setup guy", he's still got the potential to be a "weakness" for the Celtics due to his lack of offensive ability (can't shoot, can't drive late, because he can't hit free throws)... so when he sits out, our star players have a tendency to put on their vintage capes and dominate.  Pierce, in particular, seems to step his game up when Rondo is out.  Pierce seems more than comfortable letting the ball flow through him (which is how he had to play up until 2009, really)...  I'm not sure if that proves that they don't NEED Rondo out there... I suspect that even without Rondo our offense would thrive.  Some have theorized that if you stuck a shooter in there like Jose Calderon, the offense might actually be better.  It would require Pierce to control the ball more, but he'd have more space since Calderon was such a deadly shooter.  WE'd take a hit on defense, though.  Rondo has proven to be a very good defensive point guard when he's focused.

Edit:  Just took a look at what Pierce did in the 8 game stretch with Rondo out and it seems to back that up:

1/20 (LOSS) 12 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 blocks
1/22 (Win) 34 points, 10 assists, 8 rebounds, 3 steals
1/23 (win) 19 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds
1/26 (win) 24 points, 10 assists, 6 rebounds, 1 block
1/27 (win) 28 points, 8 assists, 10 rebounds, 3 steals,2  blocks
1/29 (loss) 18 points, 5 assists, 6 rebounds
1/31 (win) 20 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 steals
2/1 (win) 17 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 block

Pierce averaged 21.5 points, 7.5 assists, 6 rebounds during that stretch.  So basically what happens when Rondo sits is that Pierce gets asked to do more on offense (which he's capable of doing... dunno if he could do it long-term at this age, though) and we replace Rondo with someone who can shoot better (pretty much anyone... by default).  That doesn't take away from what Rondo does, though.  He's a very skilled setup man and in THIS system RIGHT NOW... he's clearly flourishing in his role.

Tonight was another excellent example of what I'm talking about.  Rondo is the 3rd most important player on this team.  He's phenomenal, but #1 is unquestionably KG and #2 remains Paul Pierce.  When either Pierce or KG go out, we're pretty much sunk.  When Rondo goes out, the ball just flows through Pierce (as it did until 2009) and he puts up 29 points, 14 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals... Not sure if Pierce could keep that up for a full season at his age, but the point still stands... he has a tendency to pick up his game significantly when Rondo is out... and pretty much anyone you put in Rondo's place will be an upgrade shooting the ball. 

Still think Rondo is fantastic and this idea that we are "better" without him isn't entirely accurate.  But I see how we have been able to play well without him.

[OmarSekou]

We can play well without anyone, that's what makes us a great team. T-E-A-M.

What Rondo provides is irreplaceable. Pierce is not nearly as efficient a facilitator as him. And in the playoffs when Iguodala or Granger or Lebron or Deng can basically lock him up, it wouldn't be pretty. Even the Magic are significantly better when Howard is in the lineup covering everyone's mistakes.

The Knicks are a great example of what's being discussed here. At first it was "Carmelo is ruining the team," then it was "Lin has single-highhandedly saved the season," now it's "Carmelo is carrying the team...will Stoudemire ruin it? (with Lin being out of the picture)" If the Knicks can't play better without Amare, it's a failure of their system or of Amare not buying into his role. But that doesn't change the fact that Amare is a great player and there SHOULD be a way to play better with him. (I think the main issue is everyone not named Tyson Chandler isn't willing to sacrifice their individual style of play to take on a new role).

Our system is built around Rondo. We can adapt it for when he's out, but he's the guy who runs the show. Because Doc has everyone committed to winning and playing without egos, we can win when anyone goes out. But if we are "better" without Rondo, we need to seriously overhaul our style of play to better mesh with the talents of our best player(s).

[nickagneta]

The coach of this team says that its most important player, the player that acts like another coach on the court, is Rondo. KG yesterday, when Rondo was on the floor in agony, hung around Rondo and waited to see if he was okay because he knows this whole season is over if Rondo is hurt long term. Say what you want about the hierarchy of this team but this team from this point forward is Rondo's team and HE is its most important player.

[jdz101]

Ahem, have you ever seen what Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, and Russell Westbrook do to Rondo when he tries to cover them?  BIG GAMES!  But like I said, most times Doc realizes this and puts Rondo on the shooting guards for these teams.  Just like he had Rondo on Novak last night.

Rondo scored 12 points and had 10 assists/3 steals against the clippers. Chris Paul scored 14 and had 5 assists. No exactly a huge differential. If anything Rondo had the upper hand in that game.

I would also prefer Rondo's season this year to Rose's.

[Jaycelt]

In defense of No Nickname, I've written pretty much some of the same things about Rondo for years.  I notice it.  He gets picked off too easily and doesn't even try to get back in the play making it 5 on 4 putting the rest of the team at a disadvantage.  Then, since he isn't guarding anyone, he is free to swoop in once a shot goes up and contest for the rebound.  That's the way he has played for years and apparently that's just fine with Rivers. This wouldn't be the first time Rivers philosphy has been at odds with traditional basketball philosophy (i.e. getting back on defense is more important than offense rebounds).  But it's not something new, or something that was only due to injury.

I've also always been critical of the picks for all defensive team since there is so much more to defense than steals and blocks yet the players who dominate those stats always make the team.

As for some of the other stats brought up about defensive 3pt% of individuals, I find this almost useless since we do so much rotating and swithching the guy putting up the shot could be guarded by just about anyone on the team at any given time.