Author Topic: What franchise is doing things right?  (Read 3427 times)

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Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2012, 11:42:40 AM »

Offline bdm860

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I put a big emphasis on who the team doesn’t re-sign/build around.

There are too many star players, All-Star caliber players but not superstars, that teams give big contracts to.  If you give max money to a player, he better be able to be the cornerstone of a championship team, most players that get the big contracts don’t come close to this.  So I think teams that don’t automatically give 20ppg scorers big money deals, and not overpaying fan favorites, have a big part of the formula for success down.

Chicago – Ben Gordon, averaging around 20ppg for 3 straight years, wants 10m+, I really think most teams would have given it to him.  Same thing with Eddy Curry, the Bulls acted cautiously when it was time to give him a big contract, while the Knicks couldn’t wait to throw money at him.  Both smart moves a lot of teams wouldn’t have made.

Boston – Danny Ainge comes in, immediately trades All-Star Antoine Walker, because he doesn’t think you can build a legitimate contender with him.  Reacquires Antoine later (for basically nothing), but trades him away again because he doesn’t want to give Antoine the long term contract he wants.  Trades fan favorites Eric Williams and Tony Battie during a 5 game winning streak for the notorious Ricky Davis.  Traded away beloved Kendrick Perkins.  Most GM’s would be scared to make these moves, and though there may be some disagreement on the Perk deal, looking back those were the right moves, and most GM’s wouldn’t have made them.

On the other side, you have teams like Atlanta, giving Joe Johnson that huge contract, and teams like Toronto who did everything they could to re-sign Chris Bosh (so they could win 45 games and get eliminated in the first round of the playoffs every year?).  A guy like Danny Ainge, knowing they’re not worth the money and can’t build around them, would have probably traded them before their contracts were up for lesser players and picks, enraged the fan base while doing so, but would be in a much better position now.  Joe Dumars in the beginning seemed good at doing this, trading away Jerry Stackhouse, one season removed from averaging 30ppg and hoping for a big contract, for Rip Hamilton. Got Ben Wallace in a sign-and-trade for Grant Hill.  Who thought the Pistons won those trades at the time?  Did Washington really think they could build a contender around Gilbert Arenas, or is a big reason they gave him a $100m+ contract a season after playing only 13 games due to knee injuries because it would make the fans happy?

Screw the fans, don’t keep players because it will make the fans happy.  When your winning they’ll come rushing back.

Also don’t sign/trade for players to appease your stars, talking about you Orlando and Cleveland. Summer of 2007, Kobe urged management to trade 2nd year Andrew Bynum for All-Star Jason Kidd.  Orlando or Cleveland probably would have made that trade in an instant to make LeBron or Dwight happy.  I bet looking back Kobe’s glad management didn’t listen to him.  (Although I do think you should get input from your players, just don’t let them call the shots). 

Teams that do this are doing things right.  Though it’s not always easy to know which teams are doing this or not, it’s easy to know teams that definitely aren’t:  Washington, Orlando, Cleveland, Atlanta, Toronto, New York, Sacramento, Golden State, Charlotte, Philadelphia…

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2012, 11:44:49 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Those pesky Lakers are the blueprint...but blah


I think by "blueprint" most people here mean something any GM could actually emulate.

"Put your team in a city with perfect weather and half a million hot women" doesn't give the typical GM much to go on.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2012, 11:45:00 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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Yeah i can't give OKC too much credit until they make at least 1 finals appearance. It may look good on paper and may look smart but you need something to back up those moves.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2012, 11:57:41 AM »

Offline OmarSekou

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If that's our model, then the "let's blow it up and hope we draft a superstar" plan shouldn't be our play. Field a competitive team for as long as we can, don't overpay players, don't get desperate for trades.

You seem to forget that the Spurs drafted Duncan. If Duncan is not a superstar, then who is? He is the definition of a franchise player. Keeps his head down, works, leads by example. He is not flashy, he is not noisy but that makes him the biggest superstar of the last 15 years basketball-wise. Bigger than Kobe and Shaq who had the opportunity to dominate the league for 10 years together but who blew it up because of their sad egos.

Duncan had the Admiral with him in the beginning, it made things easier for them to grab their first title in '99, however he still is the drafted cornerstone that the Spurs have been building on for 15 years.

Choosing the Spurs to make a point about why drafting a superstar should not be the Celtics plan is really a mistake. The Spurs were lucky to land Duncan and then pairing him with Robinson, but they built their teams through the draft, and it all began with Duncan.
I'm not saying we shouldn't try and draft a superstar. I'm saying that we shouldn't turn ourselves into a losing team to do it. If it happens eventually with guys playing hard and us trying to win then fine. But to me blowing it up (considering we wouldn't have gotten fair value) is saying, let's tank next season and hope we get lucky in the draft. If we can make trades to get a superstar or turn us into a well-rounded title contending team then let's do it. If not, I'm happy with the guys we've got and would love to see them retire as Celtics before we return to the lottery crap shoot and try to rebuild.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2012, 01:03:33 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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You know what's interesting about this whole discussion? We - a group of people who can disagree violently about the most trivial things - have little trouble identifying the best and worst franchises.

What's more, the differences between them are simple: the bad GMs pay lots of money to second-tier talent on long-term contracts.

I mean, there's not even room for much argument about this. No one thought Ben Gordon would morph into a franchise talent. Same goes for Arenas, or Antawn Jamison, or Joe Johnson - the list goes on and on.

So if your rule as a GM is "offer no large contract to anyone but true franchise players" you will basically beat half the other GMs in the league.

It shouldn't be that easy. But it is.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2012, 02:20:10 PM »

Offline dlpin

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OKC isn't a model franchise. They are a lucky one.

Portland picks Durant, and OKC is still struggling to make the playoffs. Harden and Westbrook are nice, but not that nice.

On top of which, there is also the luck of those picks as well. 2008 was a ridiculously deep draft, and had them ended up with the 2nd pick (instead of the 4th) they likely would have ended with beasley, who was a consensus top 2 pick. And then in 09, they end up with the 3rd pick despite having the 4th worst record (lucky in itself) and get Harden.

A couple of ping pong balls go different ways, a couple of teams draft more wisely, and they'd be the kings.

Not to mention that Presti was lucky that the owners wanted the team to tank to be able to move it. Most other franchises would have fired the GM after 3 straight years with records in the bottom 5 in the league.



Spurs is by far the best run franchise. Yes, Duncan was a one in a life time talent they lucked into. But without top picks or being a desirable destination, they've kept that team relevant for almost 15 years. Parker and Ginobili were drafted late, they always seem to find good pick ups, and so on.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2012, 02:21:49 PM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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If we're not going to give credit to Presti for not having a single terrible contract on the roster for years, I don't know what a team has to do to get it right.

Kendrick Perkins

His contract isn't that big, and he is still one of the better defensive Centers in the NBA.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2012, 02:59:31 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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I would have to say over the past 15 years the Spurs are the best run franchise. There ability to find talent late in the draft is second to none. They have also managed to avoid personality's that are detrimental to there team. I will be very interested to see how they transition away from Tim Duncan as he approaches retirement. 

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2012, 03:15:05 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I would have to say over the past 15 years the Spurs are the best run franchise. There ability to find talent late in the draft is second to none. They have also managed to avoid personality's that are detrimental to there team. I will be very interested to see how they transition away from Tim Duncan as he approaches retirement. 

That's because they've always hit the International market strong (Manu, Scola, Parker, Splitter). They would stash a pick, rather than wasting one.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2012, 03:25:42 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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If we're not going to give credit to Presti for not having a single terrible contract on the roster for years, I don't know what a team has to do to get it right.

Kendrick Perkins

His contract isn't that big, and he is still one of the better defensive Centers in the NBA.

Please, he's doing nothing in Oklahoma City except playing himself into an amnesty deal. Horribly overpaid for extremely poor numbers.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2012, 03:27:04 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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If we're not going to give credit to Presti for not having a single terrible contract on the roster for years, I don't know what a team has to do to get it right.

Kendrick Perkins

4 pts, 5 boards a game.

Horrific contract.

Presti got hosed by Ainge on the Ray Allen deal, and if Green had stayed healthy we'd be laughing at Presti about this one, too. I'm certainly laughing at OKC's wild overpay for Perkins anyway.

Nobody's perfect, but the Spurs and Lakers seem to find a way not to plummmet, as it appears inevitable we're going to do armed with all this useless cap space this summer and going forward.


A better team since the trade.  


Boston, a worse team.  


How did Ainge hose him?  (I mean besides 'ifs'.  Because we always grade coaches and GMs on "ifs")

Weather's been dryer in OKC since the trade, too. Perkins get credit for that?

Massive underachiever riding the coattails of a team that would be as successful without him.


4 pts, less than 5 boards, $9 million a year. LOL at Sam Presti.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2012, 03:28:37 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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If we're not going to give credit to Presti for not having a single terrible contract on the roster for years, I don't know what a team has to do to get it right.

Kendrick Perkins

4 pts, 5 boards a game.

Horrific contract.

Presti got hosed by Ainge on the Ray Allen deal, and if Green had stayed healthy we'd be laughing at Presti about this one, too. I'm certainly laughing at OKC's wild overpay for Perkins anyway.

Nobody's perfect, but the Spurs and Lakers seem to find a way not to plummmet, as it appears inevitable we're going to do armed with all this useless cap space this summer and going forward.


A better team since the trade. 


Boston, a worse team. 


How did Ainge hose him?  (I mean besides 'ifs'.  Because we always grade coaches and GMs on "ifs")

Weather's been dryer in OKC since the trade, too. Perkins get credit for that?

Massive overachiever riding the coattails of a team that would be as successful without him.



Since weather and players are not related, no. 



But please ignore the connection between players and records.  They have nothing to do with each other.  Teams win because of the weather. 


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2012, 04:05:59 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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If we're not going to give credit to Presti for not having a single terrible contract on the roster for years, I don't know what a team has to do to get it right.

Kendrick Perkins

4 pts, 5 boards a game.

Horrific contract.

Presti got hosed by Ainge on the Ray Allen deal, and if Green had stayed healthy we'd be laughing at Presti about this one, too. I'm certainly laughing at OKC's wild overpay for Perkins anyway.

Nobody's perfect, but the Spurs and Lakers seem to find a way not to plummmet, as it appears inevitable we're going to do armed with all this useless cap space this summer and going forward.


A better team since the trade. 


Boston, a worse team. 


How did Ainge hose him?  (I mean besides 'ifs'.  Because we always grade coaches and GMs on "ifs")

Weather's been dryer in OKC since the trade, too. Perkins get credit for that?

Massive overachiever riding the coattails of a team that would be as successful without him.



Since weather and players are not related, no. 



But please ignore the connection between players and records.  They have nothing to do with each other.  Teams win because of the weather. 

That's pretty much the only arguement you can make and there are plenty of arguments the other way.

It's like saying that Tebow is a good QB and thats why Denver was winning. If your only looking at the record than you have a point but if you actually dig into the players themselves you don't have much of an arguement

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2012, 04:19:47 PM »

Offline lepoooo

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http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/perkike01.html

You check it!

All of Perk's stats are down from last year (all but one, his TO% is up ;) ).

9 millions for him is a very bad contract, I can't wait to see how they can get rid of him.

Re: What franchise is doing things right?
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2012, 07:46:03 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/perkike01.html

You check it!

All of Perk's stats are down from last year (all but one, his TO% is up ;) ).

9 millions for him is a very bad contract, I can't wait to see how they can get rid of him.


Check it out.  The team has played  better ever since he got there.  His teammates are happy he is there. 


Running the Clippers with Redz.

 

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