Celtics pursuing Josh Smith? (rumor)

[Evantime34]

I don't watch enough Hawks games to judge, but let's just keep in mind what people in Boston have to say about Rondo. If you believe half the people here, he's a downright liability.

For all the talks about Rondo's attitude, he's never been seen yelling at the coach like Smith has. He has never openly defied a coach's instructions, like Smith has. And he has never had to be benched because of that, like Smith has.

Also, keep in mind that the bar for fanbase dissatisfaction with a player is different in Atlanta and Boston. Boston players are under a lot more scrutiny, but for someone to p--- off the Atlanta fanbase this much it takes a lot.

And for all the stats people are quoting on blocks and rebounds, there are others that tell a different story. How about a 48% true shooting percentage, which is lower than every celtics rotation player except Bradley and Oneal? How about 2.7 turnovers per game, which is higher than every celtic except rondo and pierce? Or that he takes more long 2s (from 16-23 feet) than any celtic? Smith attempts 5.9 field goals a game from 16-23 feet and makes 32% of those. For comparison, KG tries 4.8 from that distance and makes 46% of those.

Now, you could chalk this up to inexperience or youth, but the guy has been 7 years in the league. Every coach he's ever had has asked him to shoot fewer long 2s. Everyone in Atlanta has asked him to do that. People yell "no" in home games when he lines up for these shots.

He is a hell of a talent, and very athletic. But he simply does not play to his strengths and no one has seemed to change him. To bet that Rondo and Doc would change him after so long in the league is too much risk. I'd rather risk it with cap space and picks than giving up anything meaningful for Josh Smith.

I don't really want to excuse all those things but...
1. Has he ever played with an elite pg who sets him up well?
2. Yes he takes the long twos but for a long time Atlanta has run an iso offense that revolves around guys taking terrible shots. It doesn't really encourage you to not take a wide open long two if you give up that shot to watch your teammate take a turnaround fall away three.
3. Has he had a coach with the pedigree to demand his respect.
4. Has he ever played with unselfish veterans who will take him to task for a bad shot?
5. He is someone like Rondo who can look like one of the best in the league one night and one of the worst the next. But the players he plays with and the coach that coaches him have the chance to make the good games far outweigh the bad.
6. the hawks have beat the heat, bulls, and thunder this year on nights smith has had good games. That kind of game changer is valuable.
7. Even though I'm a huge fan the best package I give up for him is centered around Ray and picks. With how this team is playing recently you don't trade someone who is more consistently good now for someone who has higher upside later.

[dlpin]

I don't really want to excuse all those things but...
1. Has he ever played with an elite pg who sets him up well?
2. Yes he takes the long twos but for a long time Atlanta has run an iso offense that revolves around guys taking terrible shots. It doesn't really encourage you to not take a wide open long two if you give up that shot to watch your teammate take a turnaround fall away three.
3. Has he had a coach with the pedigree to demand his respect.
4. Has he ever played with unselfish veterans who will take him to task for a bad shot?
5. He is someone like Rondo who can look like one of the best in the league one night and one of the worst the next. But the players he plays with and the coach that coaches him have the chance to make the good games far outweigh the bad.
6. the hawks have beat the heat, bulls, and thunder this year on nights smith has had good games. That kind of game changer is valuable.
7. Even though I'm a huge fan the best package I give up for him is centered around Ray and picks. With how this team is playing recently you don't trade someone who is more consistently good now for someone who has higher upside later.

After 7 years in the league, I don't think he has any more "upside." What you see is what you get.

And his problem with long 2s has remained the same even as the Hawks have gone from Mike Woodson's iso based offense to Larry Drew's motion offense.
 

As for the rest, again, betting that Doc and Rondo will change him after 7 years in the league with the same problem is just too much risk for me. I'd rather have the cap space to get someone better, or to at least trade away for more draft picks.

[Smitty77]

BballTim,

Great points.  But, PP, Ray, and KG will likely hardly EVER play 48 minutes again (or VERY rarely, if ever), but Josh can still do that as needed.  That is a huge difference.  Extrapolating over 48 minutes when KG and likely Ray too, will NEVER play those type of minutes is really a total waste of time. 

Smitty77

[Smitty77]

Fact of the matter is that KG can be effective playing around 28 minutes per game and then we have to HOPE he doesn't get hurt again.  Josh can consistently eat up minutes and we don't have to hold our breath every time he comes down funny.

Smitty77

P.S. That is a HUGE difference.  And I am NOT suggesting that we trade KG for Josh.  I am talking about a Ray/Bass/ and maybe a first (if needed).

[bostonpatriot]

Smith plays happy-go-lucky defense (and sometimes he's flat out coasting) and boneheaded offense. Waste of talent.

[BballTim]

BballTim,

Great points.  But, PP, Ray, and KG will likely hardly EVER play 48 minutes again (or VERY rarely, if ever), but Josh can still do that as needed.  That is a huge difference.  Extrapolating over 48 minutes when KG and likely Ray too, will NEVER play those type of minutes is really a total waste of time. 

Smitty77

  Obviously they won't be playing that many minutes. And it's valuable that Josh can play a lot of minutes. The point of the per48 (not sure exactly which stat you're referring to, but it doesn't matter) is to compare how effective the players are for the minutes that they do play.

[arctic 3.0]

just another trade idea
to LAC: Ray
to ATL: mo williams, brandon bass
to BOS: josh smith?

[timepiece33]

Ray Allen, Brandon Bass, and a #1 for Josh Smith seems like a fair return overall for Atlanta and Boston.

They get some cap relief and a PF that might fit better overall for them.   We get a younger building block who fits with Rondo.

[mcshane41]

J-Smoove is sure to be a tough cookie, some will hate his poor choices and others will love his rebounding and athletic scoring. Personally I think he continues to play against his strengths b/c he's the alpha-male on that team, but he's not actually a true star (like KG, PP or Ray in their day). Josh needs to be a complimentary piece and he can really maximize his ability - what he'd be here this season. GOing forward the C's would still need to find another star once PP leaves of be doomed to be ATL (2nd round losers every year).

...if he was perfect he wouldn't be available..

A trade based on rumors that might work to arrange it:

KIngs might give up a decent C to acquire a PG who allows Tyreke to play SG and DMC to play the 5. ATL would need to get likely both our picks in this scenario too.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=77uxfhm

[mcshane41]

BTW I really dislike the idea of losing all that cap space to Josh Smith... Unlike Rondo he'd be the not quite elite guy actually getting paid elite after his trade kicker.

C's would be in real danger of being not quite good enough. I could see a Rondo, Green, Smith core taking us to 2nd rd and losing to Chicago every year. Not enough cap space to make a splash, not a high enough pick to draft a star... Dangerous territory. We'd be better off tanking and building assets.

[guava_wrench]

Managing 2 high maintenance players who were high school teammates could be a nightmare. They could also have great chemistry.

[PosImpos]

Ray Allen, Brandon Bass, and a #1 for Josh Smith seems like a fair return overall for Atlanta and Boston.

They get some cap relief and a PF that might fit better overall for them.   We get a younger building block who fits with Rondo.

That's not even close to a fair return for Atlanta.

Pierce would have to be included in the deal for that, in my opinion.  Pierce is the better player but he's got 2 years of high level play left, most likely, whereas Josh has 5-8.