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[KCattheStripe]

Wade is their only chance of winning a title, though, when Lebron has his annual choke job in the Finals.  Wade has two of the top ten Finals series performances ever, whereas Lebron has two of the most disappointing.

I think Lebron's failures in the finals are greatly exaggerated.  Even last year, he had that terrible game 4, but the other 5 games weren't bad games on the whole (18 p, 7.2 r, 6.8 a on 48% shooting in the 6 games).  His real problem was deferring to Wade (who was playing very well).  Without Wade around, Lebron doesn't defer and the Heat beat the Mavs (and I think they do so even if they don't trade Wade and he just wasn't around).

Against the Spurs, the Cavs were just overmatched all around, but Lebron still averaged 22 p, 7 r, and 6.8 a.

For 95% of the players in the NBA, 18/7/7 is a great series.  Not for Lebron, though.  He looked timid and scared, and he wasn't just deferring to Wade.  He was deferring to guys like Haslem and Joel Anthony.

Eventually, I'm sure Lebron will play well in a Finals, and his team will win a couple of titles.  However, I absolutely do think Wade is a better closer.

Wade is a better closer, but Lebron is a better player and the Heat play better when Wade doesn't play.

False, the Heat pulled out of their funk last year when Wade's usage went up.

1-0 without Wade or Lebron, 4-0 without Wade, 5-4 with Wade.  Last year doesn't matter.

You're right and because small sample sizes always makes for a compelling argument, they should trade both Wade and LeBron and let Bosh lead the team to the promised land.

[Moranis]

Wade is their only chance of winning a title, though, when Lebron has his annual choke job in the Finals.  Wade has two of the top ten Finals series performances ever, whereas Lebron has two of the most disappointing.

I think Lebron's failures in the finals are greatly exaggerated.  Even last year, he had that terrible game 4, but the other 5 games weren't bad games on the whole (18 p, 7.2 r, 6.8 a on 48% shooting in the 6 games).  His real problem was deferring to Wade (who was playing very well).  Without Wade around, Lebron doesn't defer and the Heat beat the Mavs (and I think they do so even if they don't trade Wade and he just wasn't around).

Against the Spurs, the Cavs were just overmatched all around, but Lebron still averaged 22 p, 7 r, and 6.8 a.

For 95% of the players in the NBA, 18/7/7 is a great series.  Not for Lebron, though.  He looked timid and scared, and he wasn't just deferring to Wade.  He was deferring to guys like Haslem and Joel Anthony.

Eventually, I'm sure Lebron will play well in a Finals, and his team will win a couple of titles.  However, I absolutely do think Wade is a better closer.

Wade is a better closer, but Lebron is a better player and the Heat play better when Wade doesn't play.

False, the Heat pulled out of their funk last year when Wade's usage went up.

1-0 without Wade or Lebron, 4-0 without Wade, 5-4 with Wade.  Last year doesn't matter.

You're right and because small sample sizes always makes for a compelling argument, they should trade both Wade and LeBron and let Bosh lead the team to the promised land.

now 5-0 without Wade and with Lebron after crushing the Sixers.  4-2 last year without Wade and with Lebron.

The Heat are a better overall team without Wade.  Strange, but true. 

[Moranis]

Obviously I posted this last year before the Heat won the title, but the Wade thread got me to thinking. 

What about a Wade for Love swap?  Love obviously isn't happy in Minnesota and will seemingly opt out as soon as possible.  Wade is happy in Miami but is aging and was never a great fit next to James.  Both are all star players and both really fill a hole on the other team.  Miami really needs that banging rebounder down low and Love's outside shooting will mesh well with both Bosh and James.  Minnesota needs a veteran star that can be that go to player in crunch time and with Pekovic and AK47 can realistically trade a big for a small.

Obviously other pieces could be included like Barea/Ridnour going back to Miami for a big like Lewis/Anthony/Haslem to help even out the respective rosters. 

So if Miami called Minnesota or vice versa, which team balks at the trade?

[Fafnir]

Obviously I posted this last year before the Heat won the title, but the Wade thread got me to thinking. 

What about a Wade for Love swap?  Love obviously isn't happy in Minnesota and will seemingly opt out as soon as possible.  Wade is happy in Miami but is aging and was never a great fit next to James.  Both are all star players and both really fill a hole on the other team.  Miami really needs that banging rebounder down low and Love's outside shooting will mesh well with both Bosh and James.  Minnesota needs a veteran star that can be that go to player in crunch time and with Pekovic and AK47 can realistically trade a big for a small.

Obviously other pieces could be included like Barea/Ridnour going back to Miami for a "big" like say Lewis to help even out the respective rosters. 

So if Miami called Minnesota or vice versa, which team balks at the trade?

Minnesota.

Love worries them because he has an opt out in 2015-2016, Wade has an opt out a year earlier!

Beyond that Love's younger and will provide more if they can convince him to hang around.

[frosty33]

that would NEVER happen

[manl_lui]

why do we care and want Miami to get better by trading Wade...don't we want them to get worse?

With Wade declining, that is in our favor, with Lee and Bradley having fun with Wade, this is gonna be fun to watch as a Celtic fan!

if we can neutralize Wade/Ray Allen, our chances back at the finals is not such a fantasy...

I believe KG will still be able to contain Bosh...this is 2010 Bos-Cav series all over again

-Let Lebron score all he wants but try to shut down the other players...I honestly believe our rotation of Lee/Bradley/Terry (Doubt Terry will have an impact on the defense end though, but mainly his offense) can contain Wade.

Rondo will have his way with Chalmers.

Also our bench is better than theirs

[action781]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=awfmak6

Miami trades:  Wade
Miami gets:  Marc Gasol, Tony Allen

Minnesota trades:  Kirilenko, Pekovic
Minnesota gets:  Rudy Gay

Memphis trades:  Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol
Memphis gets:  Wade, AK, Pekovic

Miami gives up the most talent in this deal, but I like the fit for them.  (Add, I don't think this trade would ever happen.  I wonder if there's anything similar though)

[MJohnnyboy]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=awfmak6

Miami trades:  Wade
Miami gets:  Marc Gasol, Tony Allen

Minnesota trades:  Kirilenko, Pekovic
Minnesota gets:  Rudy Gay

Memphis trades:  Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol
Memphis gets:  Wade, AK, Pekovic

Miami gives up the most talent in this deal, but I like the fit for them.  (Add, I don't think this trade would ever happen.  I wonder if there's anything similar though)

Memphis isn't trading their two most valuable defensive players for a declining Wade.

Minnesota isn't trading a valuable big and a valuable wing for an overpaid wing.

[slamtheking]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=awfmak6

Miami trades:  Wade
Miami gets:  Marc Gasol, Tony Allen

Minnesota trades:  Kirilenko, Pekovic
Minnesota gets:  Rudy Gay

Memphis trades:  Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol
Memphis gets:  Wade, AK, Pekovic

Miami gives up the most talent in this deal, but I like the fit for them.  (Add, I don't think this trade would ever happen.  I wonder if there's anything similar though)

Memphis isn't trading their two most valuable defensive players for a declining Wade.

Minnesota isn't trading a valuable big and a valuable wing for an overpaid wing.

throw in that Wade is not the best player in this deal.  I'd argue that Gasol would be more highly valued than Wade at this point.  Quite possibly Gay would be as well.

This deal would put Miami over the top for the next several years.  Not even the Minny or Memphis GMs would be foolish enough to set up Miami for a string of titles especially when all they're giving up is a banged up Wade who's declining in talent

[Who]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=awfmak6

Miami trades:  Wade
Miami gets:  Marc Gasol, Tony Allen

Minnesota trades:  Kirilenko, Pekovic
Minnesota gets:  Rudy Gay

Memphis trades:  Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol
Memphis gets:  Wade, AK, Pekovic

Miami gives up the most talent in this deal, but I like the fit for them.  (Add, I don't think this trade would ever happen.  I wonder if there's anything similar though)

Memphis isn't trading their two most valuable defensive players for a declining Wade.

Minnesota isn't trading a valuable big and a valuable wing for an overpaid wing.

throw in that Wade is not the best player in this deal.  I'd argue that Gasol would be more highly valued than Wade at this point.  Quite possibly Gay would be as well.

This deal would put Miami over the top for the next several years.  Not even the Minny or Memphis GMs would be foolish enough to set up Miami for a string of titles especially when all they're giving up is a banged up Wade who's declining in talent

I would still rate Wade as comfortably the best player in this deal.

Memphis roster would be pretty interesting post-trade.

PG - Conley, Bayless
SG - Wade, Ellington
SF - Kirilenko, Pondexter
PF - Z.Randolph, D.Arthur
C  - Pekovic, Speights, Haddadi

A 1-2 punch of Wade and Z-Bo. Conley at the point. Kirilenko as a do-it-all forward. Pekovic to provide some interior scoring. Same bench as before. It's an interesting mix.

Not sure whether I'd do the trade from Memphis point of view but that is a very good roster they'd leave behind post-trade. I would consider it.

[action781]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=awfmak6

Miami trades:  Wade
Miami gets:  Marc Gasol, Tony Allen

Minnesota trades:  Kirilenko, Pekovic
Minnesota gets:  Rudy Gay

Memphis trades:  Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol
Memphis gets:  Wade, AK, Pekovic

Miami gives up the most talent in this deal, but I like the fit for them.  (Add, I don't think this trade would ever happen.  I wonder if there's anything similar though)

Memphis isn't trading their two most valuable defensive players for a declining Wade.

Minnesota isn't trading a valuable big and a valuable wing for an overpaid wing.

throw in that Wade is not the best player in this deal.  I'd argue that Gasol would be more highly valued than Wade at this point.  Quite possibly Gay would be as well.

This deal would put Miami over the top for the next several years.  Not even the Minny or Memphis GMs would be foolish enough to set up Miami for a string of titles especially when all they're giving up is a banged up Wade who's declining in talent

While it has been well stated in this thread that Wade is declining, I think you are both underestimating how good Wade is.  He is declining from being a top 3 player in the league down to like the 8-15th best player in the league.  Still the best player in that deal.

[Who]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=awfmak6

Miami trades:  Wade
Miami gets:  Marc Gasol, Tony Allen

Minnesota trades:  Kirilenko, Pekovic
Minnesota gets:  Rudy Gay

Memphis trades:  Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol
Memphis gets:  Wade, AK, Pekovic

Miami gives up the most talent in this deal, but I like the fit for them.  (Add, I don't think this trade would ever happen.  I wonder if there's anything similar though)

Memphis isn't trading their two most valuable defensive players for a declining Wade.

Minnesota isn't trading a valuable big and a valuable wing for an overpaid wing.

I think Minnesota would take a short term hit.

A trio of Ricky Rubio, Rudy Gay and Kevin Love would be a strong three man foundation to build around long term. Better than what they currently have. I think that would be the selling point. A superior long term core to build around. Rather than immediate improvement.

Does Minnesota have much flexibility to build their squad around those three guys though? They'd still have Derrick Williams. He is a valuable trade chip. Some solid guards. A lack of big men. Not sure that is enough.

I think they'd need to find a way to add a Tyson Chandler type big man to complete their squad and put themselves into the title mix. That might be doable.

[Who]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=awfmak6

Miami trades:  Wade
Miami gets:  Marc Gasol, Tony Allen

Minnesota trades:  Kirilenko, Pekovic
Minnesota gets:  Rudy Gay

Memphis trades:  Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol
Memphis gets:  Wade, AK, Pekovic

Miami gives up the most talent in this deal, but I like the fit for them.  (Add, I don't think this trade would ever happen.  I wonder if there's anything similar though)

Memphis isn't trading their two most valuable defensive players for a declining Wade.

Minnesota isn't trading a valuable big and a valuable wing for an overpaid wing.

throw in that Wade is not the best player in this deal.  I'd argue that Gasol would be more highly valued than Wade at this point.  Quite possibly Gay would be as well.

This deal would put Miami over the top for the next several years.  Not even the Minny or Memphis GMs would be foolish enough to set up Miami for a string of titles especially when all they're giving up is a banged up Wade who's declining in talent

While it has been well stated in this thread that Wade is declining, I think you are both underestimating how good Wade is.  He is declining from being a top 3 player in the league down to like the 8-15th best player in the league.  Still the best player in that deal.

Yeah, that's how I see it too.

[Moranis]

Obviously I posted this last year before the Heat won the title, but the Wade thread got me to thinking. 

What about a Wade for Love swap?  Love obviously isn't happy in Minnesota and will seemingly opt out as soon as possible.  Wade is happy in Miami but is aging and was never a great fit next to James.  Both are all star players and both really fill a hole on the other team.  Miami really needs that banging rebounder down low and Love's outside shooting will mesh well with both Bosh and James.  Minnesota needs a veteran star that can be that go to player in crunch time and with Pekovic and AK47 can realistically trade a big for a small.

Obviously other pieces could be included like Barea/Ridnour going back to Miami for a "big" like say Lewis to help even out the respective rosters. 

So if Miami called Minnesota or vice versa, which team balks at the trade?

Minnesota.

Love worries them because he has an opt out in 2015-2016, Wade has an opt out a year earlier!

Beyond that Love's younger and will provide more if they can convince him to hang around.

It's more than just an ETO.  Love is visibly unhappy and that is never a good type of player to have around.  Minny obviously isn't going to just give him away, but I firmly believe that if they got good value back for him they would move him in an instant, even for a guy with an ETO like Wade has.  Certainly would be a calculated risk, but maybe Minny can get some other value back like getting rid of some bad contracts

This seemingly fits the bill

Minny - Wade, Haslem, Cole
Miami - Love, Ridnour, Roy (just to rid Minny of the contract)

That would leave Minnesota with
PG - Rubio, Barea, Cole
SG - Wade, Barea, Shved
SF - Kirilenko, Budinger (when back), Lee
PF - Haslem, Kirilenko, Williams, Cunningham/Admundson
C - Pekovic, Stiemer

And they can still move Williams to plug in some depth (maybe they try to bring in Pau for a 2/3 season run centered around Rubio, Wade, and Pau).


Miami would be
PG - Chalmers, Ridnour
SG - Allen, Ridnour, Roy (if he ever plays again which is unlikely)
SF - James, Miller, Jones
PF - Love, Battier, Lewis
C - Bosh, Anthony


I really think that would be a solid trade for both teams and inch both closer to a title (or in the case of miami keep them there longer).

[action781]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=awfmak6

Miami trades:  Wade
Miami gets:  Marc Gasol, Tony Allen

Minnesota trades:  Kirilenko, Pekovic
Minnesota gets:  Rudy Gay

Memphis trades:  Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, Marc Gasol
Memphis gets:  Wade, AK, Pekovic

Miami gives up the most talent in this deal, but I like the fit for them.  (Add, I don't think this trade would ever happen.  I wonder if there's anything similar though)

Memphis isn't trading their two most valuable defensive players for a declining Wade.

Minnesota isn't trading a valuable big and a valuable wing for an overpaid wing.

throw in that Wade is not the best player in this deal.  I'd argue that Gasol would be more highly valued than Wade at this point.  Quite possibly Gay would be as well.

This deal would put Miami over the top for the next several years.  Not even the Minny or Memphis GMs would be foolish enough to set up Miami for a string of titles especially when all they're giving up is a banged up Wade who's declining in talent

I would still rate Wade as comfortably the best player in this deal.

Memphis roster would be pretty interesting post-trade.

PG - Conley, Bayless
SG - Wade, Ellington
SF - Kirilenko, Pondexter
PF - Z.Randolph, D.Arthur
C  - Pekovic, Speights, Haddadi

A 1-2 punch of Wade and Z-Bo. Conley at the point. Kirilenko as a do-it-all forward. Pekovic to provide some interior scoring. Same bench as before. It's an interesting mix.

Not sure whether I'd do the trade from Memphis point of view but that is a very good roster they'd leave behind post-trade. I would consider it.

Memphis' reportedly shopping of Gay is what makes me think they'd be even more on board than we may think.  I think Memphis and Minnesota do it but that Miami is the team in question here.  Defending champs, best record in the East, and they take back less talent than they are sending out?  Sounds awful when put that way, but the fit and the age is what really intrigues me if I'm Riley.