Author Topic: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.  (Read 8278 times)

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Re: Boston & Phoenix trade.
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 10:49:22 PM »

Offline raynman

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I hope people who post these kinds of things name it aptly as "TRADE IDEA" so you won't waste people's valuable time thinking some deal has really gone down! Thank you.

Re: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 11:28:31 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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I hope people who post these kinds of things name it aptly as "TRADE IDEA" so you won't waste people's valuable time thinking some deal has really gone down! Thank you.

general rule of thumb -- if it's in this forum, it's a rumor or an idea.

hence the title of the forum: trade ideas and rumors.

im not trying to be rude, but there's a reason there are different subforums with section titles.  otherwise, we'd all post in one main general discussion forum and we'd put tags on our thread titles.


now, that's not to say it's okay to be deliberately misleading when you make a post like this, but i don't think you have to explicitly specify "idea" or "rumor" in a forum called "trade ideas and rumors."

if it's not on the front page, assume it isn't news.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
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Re: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 12:42:14 AM »

Offline raynman

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I hope people who post these kinds of things name it aptly as "TRADE IDEA" so you won't waste people's valuable time thinking some deal has really gone down! Thank you.

general rule of thumb -- if it's in this forum, it's a rumor or an idea.

hence the title of the forum: trade ideas and rumors.

im not trying to be rude, but there's a reason there are different subforums with section titles.  otherwise, we'd all post in one main general discussion forum and we'd put tags on our thread titles.


now, that's not to say it's okay to be deliberately misleading when you make a post like this, but i don't think you have to explicitly specify "idea" or "rumor" in a forum called "trade ideas and rumors."

if it's not on the front page, assume it isn't news.

I'm not angry.. I'm just saying.. Thanks..
I'm really just hoping for some good news, whether trade or free agent signing after the bad news on JG.. I wonder what DA's cooking up right now?

Re: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 01:21:25 AM »

Offline syfy9

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Ray is being underestimated, he is still a deadly shooter - not as athletic, but one of the most reliable shooters in the league. Rondo is ample times better at Nash in defense - I don't think Dudley would break out in Boston, as he is not dominating w/ Nash.

Hopefully the guy you saw was Jimmer or something and not Danny.
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Re: Boston-Phoenix Fact and Fiction
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 05:30:22 AM »

Offline Yogi

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did you actually see somebody who looked like DA down in PHX, or were you just making that up to get post-views?

Fact: I was in the Phoenix Airport and I did see a grey haired 6 foot 4 gentlemen at Baggage Claim who looked a lot like Danny Ainge but he did not make eye contact with me so I did bother to strike up a conversation saying hey, "Are you Danny Ainge?"

Fact: I think we will find as the season plays out that the Celtics may have some shortcomings and we may be faced with making deadline deals engineering a fire sale to accumulate assets for the future and saving the teams finances.

Fact: This team could do well and go to the Eastern Finals and lose to the Heat again and then hard decisions have to be made with the roster. None of us here have a clue on how this season and the future play out.

Fact: The Phoenix Suns are in a real similar position as we are but have better core and more depth for the future.

   I am not sure you understand the meaning of the word Fact. 
The first one is a fact.  However it is highly probable that you only saw a 6'4 Caucasian male with a passing resemblance to Ainge. 

   Your second point is entirely speculative.  Phrases like "I think," "will find," "may have," "may be" etc. signify either subjective thoughts or predictions. 
   
   Your third point is also about a possibility and not a fact.  As you yourself aptly put it, no one here know the future.  We can only guess. 
   
   Your last point is simply false.  The exact opposite of a fact. 
1 The Suns did not make the play offs last year, and are not considered favorites to make it this year either.  The Celtics went to the second round, and are projected to do at least that this year. 
2 Steve Nash and Grant Hill are about 38 years old.  The big three are 35 years old.  We have a 25 year old All-Star to build around while they have no young star. 
3 While both teams have 30 million tied up next year, we have a multiple time All-Star in the prime of his career, and a Hall of Famer who is still among the elite scorers in the game.  The  Suns have 30 million tied up in 4 mid level players whose production will probably decrease with the departure or retirement of Steve Nash. 

   I also do not think that a trade that takes away 8 million of our cap space next year without adding a star (in fact losing an all-star) is the way to go.  Furthermore the proposed trade while possibly improving our offense, would destroy any continuity and chemistry among our core and make us much worse defensively.
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Re: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 06:42:22 AM »

Offline 2short

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 ::)
nash is a backup to rondo

Re: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2011, 08:08:58 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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Re: Boston & Phoenix trade.
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2011, 08:44:12 AM »

Offline BballTim

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it's not fair to point to JO's season in Miami.  he's a different player now.  that last season in Miami was prior to his latest serious knee injury.  we haven't seen anything from JO in the time that he's been here to suggest that he's on the same level as Gortat.  


  Different how? Healthier? Less healthy? You're expecting to see no better from JO than we saw last year?


Re: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2011, 09:22:41 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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it's not fair to point to JO's season in Miami.  he's a different player now.  that last season in Miami was prior to his latest serious knee injury.  we haven't seen anything from JO in the time that he's been here to suggest that he's on the same level as Gortat.  


  Different how? Healthier? Less healthy? You're expecting to see no better from JO than we saw last year?


different as in even more injury prone, much slower / less athletic, and far less of a factor offensively.

as for my expectations, you are correct.  JO is what he is at this point.  when JO is healthy, i expect to see this year more or less what we saw from JO when he was healthy last year.


::)
nash is a backup to rondo

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nashst01&y1=2011&p2=rondora01&y2=2011

you wanna rethink that?
not in the least

then clearly there's no way to convince you using objective evidence.  you are going to believe what you want to believe.  i think a fair argument could be made that nash and rondo have a roughly equivalent impact, given their respective offensive and defensive limitations.  

but calling nash merely a "backup" to rondo implies he's not even anywhere close to the same level.  if you believe that, i can only conclude you have an irrational dislike for steve nash.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
- Doc Rivers

Re: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2011, 10:39:25 AM »

Offline RyNye

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then clearly there's no way to convince you using objective evidence.  you are going to believe what you want to believe.  i think a fair argument could be made that nash and rondo have a roughly equivalent impact, given their respective offensive and defensive limitations.  

but calling nash merely a "backup" to rondo implies he's not even anywhere close to the same level.  if you believe that, i can only conclude you have an irrational dislike for steve nash.

Nash and Rondo are roughly equivalent in production. Nash is better for more raw points, but when you look at the advanced stats, the differences are negligible. Getting Nash simply isn't enough of a change to put us over the top. In fact, Rondo's ability to put up triple doubles with rebounds in the playoffs, not to mention his defense, are more valuable to this team in a ECF or Finals situation. Not that Nash isn't great, but when you look at the stats he simply isn't a significant improvement, especially as his production is declining.

You even AGREE in this post that they are roughly equivalent in terms of production. So basically the same logic you use against BballTim can be used to say that you just have an irrational dislike of Rondo.

EDIT: What I am getting at is that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there's no reason to deride other people that disagree with your opinion by claiming your opinions are somehow more objective.

Re: Boston & Phoenix trade Idea.
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2011, 02:28:33 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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then clearly there's no way to convince you using objective evidence.  you are going to believe what you want to believe.  i think a fair argument could be made that nash and rondo have a roughly equivalent impact, given their respective offensive and defensive limitations. 

but calling nash merely a "backup" to rondo implies he's not even anywhere close to the same level.  if you believe that, i can only conclude you have an irrational dislike for steve nash.

Nash and Rondo are roughly equivalent in production. Nash is better for more raw points, but when you look at the advanced stats, the differences are negligible. Getting Nash simply isn't enough of a change to put us over the top. In fact, Rondo's ability to put up triple doubles with rebounds in the playoffs, not to mention his defense, are more valuable to this team in a ECF or Finals situation. Not that Nash isn't great, but when you look at the stats he simply isn't a significant improvement, especially as his production is declining.

You even AGREE in this post that they are roughly equivalent in terms of production. So basically the same logic you use against BballTim can be used to say that you just have an irrational dislike of Rondo.

EDIT: What I am getting at is that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there's no reason to deride other people that disagree with your opinion by claiming your opinions are somehow more objective.

i think you're reading into my posts what you want to.

when i've advocated a trade for nash, i've never said that nash is a big upgrade over rondo.  i have said, as you point out, that nash is roughly equivalent to rondo considering their impact on either end of the floor.

the reason i advocate a trade for nash is that i believe a) it could make the celtics a much more complete team if they could get gortat (a legit center) and a guy like dudley, hill, or pietrus (legit backup wing) in the bargain and b) it would allow us to start clean next season, and we might even be able to get phoenix to include a likely late-lottery pick in the deal.

i feel that making the team more complete this year (read: go all-in, better chance at a deep playoff run) and at the same time moving rondo for some useful pieces and allowing us a totally clean slate after this season to tank and rebuild makes more sense than a last gasp with a thin, flawed team and then a rebuild with rondo as the main guy.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
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