Author Topic: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.  (Read 25021 times)

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Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2011, 06:00:11 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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I know. It's the 24 Win Reunion Tour again.

Until Al learns to defend, he has no place on a Doc Rivers team.

NO interest whatsoever in this guy. None.

Would he need to defend like Shaq or Semih Erden? Which one?

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2011, 06:16:32 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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Before last season, would many people on this site have wanted the Celtics to trade for Zach Randolph?


A different situation can make a world of difference for a supposedly horrible defender who has never been a key contributor on a winning team.
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Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2011, 06:31:31 PM »

Offline LB3533

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For all the potential reasons not to trade for Big Al (contract, defensive shortcomings), the post offense he would provide this year really makes up for it all.  Think how good Shaq looked with our Core Four. And that was 39-year-old, overweight Shaq, who couldn't rotate quickly enough to be an effective help defender.

If you believe we could've won it all last year with a healthy Shaq (and Rondo), you have to like our chances with Big Al at least as much, if not better.

And I'd take that over making a run at 2012 free agent, something that likely won't workout anyway.

Defenses rarely doubled Shaq.

If we have Big Al, he will not fill Shaq's role, Al will have a greater role in the offense.

We will rarely run pick and rolls with Big Al which will negate Rondo's speed & penetration.

We will be running a slow it down offense and watch Big Al pound the ball down low....boring.

When the defenses double, who will be open for Big Al to kick it out to?


For all the potential reasons not to trade for Big Al (contract, defensive shortcomings), the post offense he would provide this year really makes up for it all.  Think how good Shaq looked with our Core Four. And that was 39-year-old, overweight Shaq, who couldn't rotate quickly enough to be an effective help defender.

If you believe we could've won it all last year with a healthy Shaq (and Rondo), you have to like our chances with Big Al at least as much, if not better.

And I'd take that over making a run at 2012 free agent, something that likely won't workout anyway.
Al Jefferson is not comparable defensively to Shaq, even a 39 year old one.  Nor is he the same passer, which is what our offense relies on the most.

Not saying he wouldn't help us more than Shaq but our team definitely wouldn't be similar to last year's, it would be completely different.  We'd probably need to change the entire offense to be more inside-outside, and if you think our bench looked bad last year...

Speaking of which, I also have to doubt that we could get him here with just Jeff Green.



wait wait wait . . . are both of you arguing that it would be a BAD thing if we had a post threat credible enough that we could have a more inside-outside offense AND opposing teams would have to double team inside?

oh my gosh, i have been absolutely pining away for both of those things for the past few years.


i think a lot of the anti-jefferson people are making the mistake of thinking his role both offensively and defensively would be the same as it was when he was here prior to the Big 3.  it would likely be very different, and let's not forget that Rondo, the guy feeding him the ball, has developed immeasurably as a penetrator and as a passer since 07.

TP

I could hardly believe what I was reading either.  I had to go back and reread my original post because I thought I was going crazy. 

Anyway, clearly Jefferson is not Shaq.  However, these two points remain:

1) Because of the attention given to our Core Four, the fifth guy on the court (usually the center) gets a lot of open looks.  Perk didn't fully take advantage of this situation, which is why BBD often was on the court instead of him and why Shaq had so much success when came here after having mixed results the previous few seasons. 

Even if we ran the exact same offense we run now, Big Al should be able to take advantage of those open looks just as much as Shaq did, if not more given his youth. 

2) Shaq was not great at defending the pick and roll, nor was he good at rotations.  If the team could dominate with his defensive shortcoming, they dominate with Big Al's too.  Especially when you consider 2B. 

2B) Furthermore, Al offers the post game that this team has desperately needed.  And I can't believe people are questioning who would hit shots if teams doubled Al.  Is that a serious question on a team with three future Hall of Famers, two of whom are two of the greatest three point shooters of all time?  Was that a joke (and I'm seriously asking that, not sarcastically saying it)? 




You both mean to tell me that if we trade for Big Al, he would play Perk's role and just be better at finishing?

Come on!

If we trade for Big Al we would need to get the most out of him just like we should be getting the most out of Jeff Green.

If Big Al is just going to be the "5th guy" on the court where defenses are ignoring him (and our offensive sets are ignoring him) we'd be peeved as fans.

We would lynch Big Al just like we lynched Jeff Green last year for not being aggressive.

The reason we won back in 08 is because our Big 3 came up huge and the other two guys, Rondo and Perk didn't phuck it up.

I've come to terms that now our Big 3 are much older now and can't get it done, night in and night out so we need to get the most out of our younger guys (who are no longer young).

If you want to get the most out of Rondo you pair him up with more athletic guys or more shooters.

If you want to get the most out of a post player, you need shooters at the other 4 positions or a 3 shooters and a high post big guy who can hit the 15-18 footer.

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2011, 06:36:57 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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If you want to get the most out of Rondo you pair him up with more athletic guys or more shooters.

If you want to get the most out of a post player, you need shooters at the other 4 positions or a 3 shooters and a high post big guy who can hit the 15-18 footer.


a) why do those two things have to be mutually exclusive?  the big 3 are all great shooters, and our bench could have other good shooters too (delonte, wafer, etc)

b)with big al in the post, we'd have great shooters at 3 of the other 4 positions on the court.  how is that not a good setup?


since when is it bad to have a top post-up threat for your passing pg to feed?  just because big al is great at posting up, and probably would do so atleast 10-12 times a game, doesn't mean rondo would stop creating great looks for the other guys on the court.
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Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2011, 06:53:44 PM »

Offline Who

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I would be looking to Big Al to provide 16-18ppg and 10rpg if he joined the C's.

Plus, to have the highest FG% of his career and be a hugely efficient scorer in large part due to Rondo's playmaking + the spacing the Big Three would provide him (not just their shooting ability but the defensive attention they command).

I would looking more towards offensive balance (five guys sharing the load) than running the offense chiefly through Big Al in the post.

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2011, 06:56:15 PM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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I love this idea. BIG AL!

Going forward, we'd have Pierce, Big Al, Rondo, and tons of cap room.

r basically what we had before we had the Big3

Except now we potentially have a bench of Ray and KG and we can cherry pick from the free agency.

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2011, 07:12:40 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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I would be looking to Big Al to provide 16-18ppg and 10rpg if he joined the C's.

Plus, to have the highest FG% of his career and be a hugely efficient scorer in large part due to Rondo's playmaking + the spacing the Big Three would provide him (not just their shooting ability but the defensive attention they command).

I would looking more towards offensive balance (five guys sharing the load) than running the offense chiefly through Big Al in the post.

agreed.  the idea would be to use big al when he's open or has a very favorable matchup, and only lean on him specifically when the outside shooting starts to falter and rondo / pierce / allen are having trouble getting to the rim.

defensively the idea would be to protect him the same way they did with shaq.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2011, 07:15:56 PM »

Offline bagwell368

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Jefferson is far from a horrible defender, he's not great, but his PPP was exceptionally good for someone who's a terrible defender. Bring him in, and get ring 18.

4 team deal-
Bos gets-Al Jefferson OJ Mayo
Memphis gets-Rodney Stuckey
Utah gets- Jeff Green
Detroit gets-Glen Davis, Avery Bradley

as the groundwork would be beneficiary for all teams. Boston gets their post up big, Mayo gives them their 6th man, Stuckey is like a Mayo without the problems and can also play PG which is a big plus for them, Utah makes room for Kanter and fills a hole at SF, and Detroit get

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2011, 07:58:38 PM »

Offline FallGuy

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Jefferson makes $15M in 2012-13. No way Ainge signs up for that.

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2011, 08:39:41 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Jefferson is far from a horrible defender, he's not great, but his PPP was exceptionally good for someone who's a terrible defender. Bring him in, and get ring 18.

4 team deal-
Bos gets-Al Jefferson OJ Mayo
Memphis gets-Rodney Stuckey
Utah gets- Jeff Green
Detroit gets-Glen Davis, Avery Bradley

as the groundwork would be beneficiary for all teams. Boston gets their post up big, Mayo gives them their 6th man, Stuckey is like a Mayo without the problems and can also play PG which is a big plus for them, Utah makes room for Kanter and fills a hole at SF, and Detroit get

Why not just sign and trade Green and Baby for Al and not get Mayo. Way easier and then you don't have to deal with OJ Mayo being a waste of space.

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2011, 12:44:19 AM »

Offline LB3533

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If you want to get the most out of Rondo you pair him up with more athletic guys or more shooters.

If you want to get the most out of a post player, you need shooters at the other 4 positions or a 3 shooters and a high post big guy who can hit the 15-18 footer.


a) why do those two things have to be mutually exclusive?  the big 3 are all great shooters, and our bench could have other good shooters too (delonte, wafer, etc)

b)with big al in the post, we'd have great shooters at 3 of the other 4 positions on the court.  how is that not a good setup?


since when is it bad to have a top post-up threat for your passing pg to feed?  just because big al is great at posting up, and probably would do so atleast 10-12 times a game, doesn't mean rondo would stop creating great looks for the other guys on the court.


I am more looking further into the future when the Big 3 are gone.

I don't know how realistic it is to be able afford the Big 3, Rondo and Big Al.

To me, having another body take more shots and offensive focus away from the Big 3 is not the correct path to take.

If Big Al was our 6th man, that's a different story.

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #86 on: December 05, 2011, 01:02:59 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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If you want to get the most out of Rondo you pair him up with more athletic guys or more shooters.

If you want to get the most out of a post player, you need shooters at the other 4 positions or a 3 shooters and a high post big guy who can hit the 15-18 footer.


a) why do those two things have to be mutually exclusive?  the big 3 are all great shooters, and our bench could have other good shooters too (delonte, wafer, etc)

b)with big al in the post, we'd have great shooters at 3 of the other 4 positions on the court.  how is that not a good setup?


since when is it bad to have a top post-up threat for your passing pg to feed?  just because big al is great at posting up, and probably would do so atleast 10-12 times a game, doesn't mean rondo would stop creating great looks for the other guys on the court.


I am more looking further into the future when the Big 3 are gone.

I don't know how realistic it is to be able afford the Big 3, Rondo and Big Al.

To me, having another body take more shots and offensive focus away from the Big 3 is not the correct path to take.

If Big Al was our 6th man, that's a different story.

now that the big 3 are older, they are less capable of carrying the offensive burden.  that's why the team so often hits scoring droughts in the 4th quarter.  they run out of gas.  their jumpshots stop falling. 

that's precisely why there needs to be another body to take more shots and get the offensive focus away from the big 3 at times in the game when the big 3 aren't able to score consistently.

that, btw, was the primary reason to bring in shaq last season, but he was too old to stay healthy and fill that role for most of the season, and he was unavailable in the playoffs.  but when he was healthy, our team was very good.
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Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2011, 07:05:24 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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If you want to get the most out of Rondo you pair him up with more athletic guys or more shooters.

If you want to get the most out of a post player, you need shooters at the other 4 positions or a 3 shooters and a high post big guy who can hit the 15-18 footer.


a) why do those two things have to be mutually exclusive?  the big 3 are all great shooters, and our bench could have other good shooters too (delonte, wafer, etc)

b)with big al in the post, we'd have great shooters at 3 of the other 4 positions on the court.  how is that not a good setup?


since when is it bad to have a top post-up threat for your passing pg to feed?  just because big al is great at posting up, and probably would do so atleast 10-12 times a game, doesn't mean rondo would stop creating great looks for the other guys on the court.


I am more looking further into the future when the Big 3 are gone.

I don't know how realistic it is to be able afford the Big 3, Rondo and Big Al.

To me, having another body take more shots and offensive focus away from the Big 3 is not the correct path to take.

If Big Al was our 6th man, that's a different story.

now that the big 3 are older, they are less capable of carrying the offensive burden.  that's why the team so often hits scoring droughts in the 4th quarter.  they run out of gas.  their jumpshots stop falling. 

that's precisely why there needs to be another body to take more shots and get the offensive focus away from the big 3 at times in the game when the big 3 aren't able to score consistently.

that, btw, was the primary reason to bring in shaq last season, but he was too old to stay healthy and fill that role for most of the season, and he was unavailable in the playoffs.  but when he was healthy, our team was very good.
Shaq was not brought in for the end of games. He can't shoot foul shots. He was brought in because we needed another center and he could also help get teams in foul trouble.

Has Al been taking over 4th quarters for his other teams? Or have they all just been losing? I think Doc is more concerned with shutting opponents down at the end of games. I don't see bringing in offense only guys to close out games as a common strategy.

I am not against having Al around while rebuilding if he has a reasonable contract, but I do not see him as a guy who helps you win much. Then again, Zach Randolph managed to turn around his image this past season.

Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2011, 08:16:58 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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I'm coming round to AJ back in Boston.
I know his flaws and worry that his D might give KG a stroke
I know that as a first option he slows down the O and kills ball movement.
I know that he's got a rep as a black hole.
However
I know that he is a rebounding machine,
I know he has great footwork and soft hands,
I know that he can finish around the rim, block shots and that he is probably the best back to the basket offensive player in the game right now.

If he can work for position before the ball is in his hands, if he can make his move quickly after he gets it, if he can pass the ball back out of a double team then he could be the best fourth / fifth option in basketball.

he can't carry a rebuilding team but he has the tools to contribute to a championship.

seems to me big men are quickly written off if they don't dominate.
-chandler was being called a bust a few years ago, he bounced from team to team, folks laughed at the idea of trading him for perk.
-zach randolph
even omeka,
al Jefferson

these guys are all skilled players, not great enough to bring a championship themselves but all capable of contributing to a championship (at least as much of a contribution as old mr stone hands, double pump perkins.


Re: Celtics should try to bring Big Al Jefferson, now is the moment Danny.
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2011, 10:14:32 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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If you want to get the most out of Rondo you pair him up with more athletic guys or more shooters.

If you want to get the most out of a post player, you need shooters at the other 4 positions or a 3 shooters and a high post big guy who can hit the 15-18 footer.


a) why do those two things have to be mutually exclusive?  the big 3 are all great shooters, and our bench could have other good shooters too (delonte, wafer, etc)

b)with big al in the post, we'd have great shooters at 3 of the other 4 positions on the court.  how is that not a good setup?


since when is it bad to have a top post-up threat for your passing pg to feed?  just because big al is great at posting up, and probably would do so atleast 10-12 times a game, doesn't mean rondo would stop creating great looks for the other guys on the court.


I am more looking further into the future when the Big 3 are gone.

I don't know how realistic it is to be able afford the Big 3, Rondo and Big Al.

To me, having another body take more shots and offensive focus away from the Big 3 is not the correct path to take.

If Big Al was our 6th man, that's a different story.

now that the big 3 are older, they are less capable of carrying the offensive burden.  that's why the team so often hits scoring droughts in the 4th quarter.  they run out of gas.  their jumpshots stop falling.  

that's precisely why there needs to be another body to take more shots and get the offensive focus away from the big 3 at times in the game when the big 3 aren't able to score consistently.

that, btw, was the primary reason to bring in shaq last season, but he was too old to stay healthy and fill that role for most of the season, and he was unavailable in the playoffs.  but when he was healthy, our team was very good.
Shaq was not brought in for the end of games. He can't shoot foul shots. He was brought in because we needed another center and he could also help get teams in foul trouble.

Has Al been taking over 4th quarters for his other teams? Or have they all just been losing? I think Doc is more concerned with shutting opponents down at the end of games. I don't see bringing in offense only guys to close out games as a common strategy.

I am not against having Al around while rebuilding if he has a reasonable contract, but I do not see him as a guy who helps you win much. Then again, Zach Randolph managed to turn around his image this past season.

i think zach randolph is a very good comparison with al jefferson.  put him on a team that can cover up his defensive shortcomings and that doesn't require him to be the absolute focal point of the offense, but still lets him get into a rhythm, and he could be great.  keep in mind, too, that al jefferson has never been accused of being the kind of lazy, thuggish ballhog that randolph was consistently accused of being prior to his time in memphis.

all it takes is the right situation for a player to turn around the narrative surrounding him.  


whether or not it has been the strategy in the past, it's time to start bringing in players who can create their own shot in crunch time.  this team may have been built to shut down the opponent in crunch time, but time and time against we've seen this team falter down the stretch against good teams (and not so good teams) because they fail to score hardly at all in the last 5-10 minutes of a game.  it's really difficult to win a championship that way. 

i'm absolutely sick of hearing "the celtics led most of the way, carrying a double digit lead into the fourth quarter . . . " prefacing a loss.  let's put that behind us.  please.

in '08, we at least had pierce to create shots 1 on 1 for himself, and ray was more likely to have his legs underneath him to hit a few big shots.  neither of them can really do that anymore.  we can't expect the big 3 to carry the majority of the offensive load over the course of 4 quarters anymore.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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- Doc Rivers