Wishful thinking about the CP3 / D12 / Deron situations

[PosImpos]

I'm with you, who.  I don't know much about European soccer, but I think the "friend" connection is way overblown in the NBA.  I'm sure a lot of guys have friends around the league, but you don't hear people demanding trades to get to go play with their friend, Ryan Gomes or Deshawn Stevenson. 

If Rajon Rondo where to play like an MVP candidate and lead us to a title this year, I'm guessing Dwight Howard would be dying to be his "BFF" come next off-season.

i don't think anybody is arguing that players prefer to play with friends even if they are just roleplayers.

the idea is that a superstar would rather play with another star who is also a friend than one who isn't.

[Celtics18]

I'm with you, who.  I don't know much about European soccer, but I think the "friend" connection is way overblown in the NBA.  I'm sure a lot of guys have friends around the league, but you don't hear people demanding trades to get to go play with their friend, Ryan Gomes or Deshawn Stevenson. 

If Rajon Rondo where to play like an MVP candidate and lead us to a title this year, I'm guessing Dwight Howard would be dying to be his "BFF" come next off-season.

i don't think anybody is arguing that players prefer to play with friends even if they are just roleplayers.

the idea is that a superstar would rather play with another star who is also a friend than one who isn't.

So which do you think is a bigger factor?  Is it the fact that the other player is also a superstar and can help the team, and by extension the individual, gain success and glory, or the fact that he might be fun to "chill with"?

Also, these guys who talk about being friends, what is it that unites them as friends?  Surely, it's the game of basketball.  Their relationships are forged through playing with and against each other of the years.  So when they say they are "friends," I think what they really mean is that they would relish the opportunity to play ball together, not that they'll be psyched to be on the same team so they can go to the movies together on non game nights. 

[PosImpos]

I'm with you, who.  I don't know much about European soccer, but I think the "friend" connection is way overblown in the NBA.  I'm sure a lot of guys have friends around the league, but you don't hear people demanding trades to get to go play with their friend, Ryan Gomes or Deshawn Stevenson.  

If Rajon Rondo where to play like an MVP candidate and lead us to a title this year, I'm guessing Dwight Howard would be dying to be his "BFF" come next off-season.

i don't think anybody is arguing that players prefer to play with friends even if they are just roleplayers.

the idea is that a superstar would rather play with another star who is also a friend than one who isn't.

So which do you think is a bigger factor?  Is it the fact that the other player is also a superstar and can help the team, and by extension the individual, gain success and glory, or the fact that he might be fun to "chill with"?

Also, these guys who talk about being friends, what is it that unites them as friends?  Surely, it's the game of basketball.  Their relationships are forged through playing with and against each other of the years.  So when they say they are "friends," I think what they really mean is that they would relish the opportunity to play ball together, not that they'll be psyched to be on the same team so they can go to the movies together on non game nights.  

my thinking is that a group of superstars who are good friends would prefer to be together on the same team, fighting to win together (e.g. the Heat), than on separate teams that might have supporting casts more likely to help them win the most games.  

for example, wade or lebron could have gone to the bulls last season, but they chose to play together with chris bosh in miami.  the bulls with wade or lebron would have been a much better and more balanced team than the heat with their Big 3 and a bunch of scrap-heap players.  but as bill simmons put it at the time, lebron had a choice between loyalty, winning, greatness, and friendship (cavs, bulls, knicks, and heat), and lebron chose friendship.

[Celtics18]

I'm with you, who.  I don't know much about European soccer, but I think the "friend" connection is way overblown in the NBA.  I'm sure a lot of guys have friends around the league, but you don't hear people demanding trades to get to go play with their friend, Ryan Gomes or Deshawn Stevenson.  

If Rajon Rondo where to play like an MVP candidate and lead us to a title this year, I'm guessing Dwight Howard would be dying to be his "BFF" come next off-season.

i don't think anybody is arguing that players prefer to play with friends even if they are just roleplayers.

the idea is that a superstar would rather play with another star who is also a friend than one who isn't.

So which do you think is a bigger factor?  Is it the fact that the other player is also a superstar and can help the team, and by extension the individual, gain success and glory, or the fact that he might be fun to "chill with"?

Also, these guys who talk about being friends, what is it that unites them as friends?  Surely, it's the game of basketball.  Their relationships are forged through playing with and against each other of the years.  So when they say they are "friends," I think what they really mean is that they would relish the opportunity to play ball together, not that they'll be psyched to be on the same team so they can go to the movies together on non game nights.  

my thinking is that a group of superstars who are good friends would prefer to be together on the same team, fighting to win together (e.g. the Heat), than on separate teams that might have supporting casts more likely to help them win the most games.  

for example, wade or lebron could have gone to the bulls last season, but they chose to play together with chris bosh in miami.  the bulls with wade or lebron would have been a much better and more balanced team than the heat with their Big 3 and a bunch of scrap-heap players.  but as bill simmons put it at the time, lebron had a choice between loyalty, winning, greatness, and friendship (cavs, bulls, knicks, and heat), and lebron chose friendship.

Nobody ever said that these guys were GMs.  That said, I honestly don't think putting D-Wade or Lebron James with Rose in Chicago would have been that much of a better fit for either of them. Derrick Rose's height makes him a point guard, but other than that, he's more or less the same type of player as those two are. 

[PosImpos]

I'm with you, who.  I don't know much about European soccer, but I think the "friend" connection is way overblown in the NBA.  I'm sure a lot of guys have friends around the league, but you don't hear people demanding trades to get to go play with their friend, Ryan Gomes or Deshawn Stevenson. 

If Rajon Rondo where to play like an MVP candidate and lead us to a title this year, I'm guessing Dwight Howard would be dying to be his "BFF" come next off-season.

i don't think anybody is arguing that players prefer to play with friends even if they are just roleplayers.

the idea is that a superstar would rather play with another star who is also a friend than one who isn't.

So which do you think is a bigger factor?  Is it the fact that the other player is also a superstar and can help the team, and by extension the individual, gain success and glory, or the fact that he might be fun to "chill with"?

Also, these guys who talk about being friends, what is it that unites them as friends?  Surely, it's the game of basketball.  Their relationships are forged through playing with and against each other of the years.  So when they say they are "friends," I think what they really mean is that they would relish the opportunity to play ball together, not that they'll be psyched to be on the same team so they can go to the movies together on non game nights. 

my thinking is that a group of superstars who are good friends would prefer to be together on the same team, fighting to win together (e.g. the Heat), than on separate teams that might have supporting casts more likely to help them win the most games. 

for example, wade or lebron could have gone to the bulls last season, but they chose to play together with chris bosh in miami.  the bulls with wade or lebron would have been a much better and more balanced team than the heat with their Big 3 and a bunch of scrap-heap players.  but as bill simmons put it at the time, lebron had a choice between loyalty, winning, greatness, and friendship (cavs, bulls, knicks, and heat), and lebron chose friendship.

Nobody ever said that these guys were GMs.  That said, I honestly don't think putting D-Wade or Lebron James with Rose in Chicago would have been that much of a better fit for either of them. Derrick Rose's height makes him a point guard, but other than that, he's more or less the same type of player as those two are. 

perhaps, but with that supporting cast it would be no contest. and while superstars are not GMs, i think they can appreciate the difference between a supporting cast of chalmers, haslem, joel anthony and vet. minimum castoffs vs. joakim noah, luol deng, taj gibson, ronnie brewer etc.

[BballTim]

I'm with you, who.  I don't know much about European soccer, but I think the "friend" connection is way overblown in the NBA.  I'm sure a lot of guys have friends around the league, but you don't hear people demanding trades to get to go play with their friend, Ryan Gomes or Deshawn Stevenson.  

If Rajon Rondo where to play like an MVP candidate and lead us to a title this year, I'm guessing Dwight Howard would be dying to be his "BFF" come next off-season.

i don't think anybody is arguing that players prefer to play with friends even if they are just roleplayers.

the idea is that a superstar would rather play with another star who is also a friend than one who isn't.

So which do you think is a bigger factor?  Is it the fact that the other player is also a superstar and can help the team, and by extension the individual, gain success and glory, or the fact that he might be fun to "chill with"?

Also, these guys who talk about being friends, what is it that unites them as friends?  Surely, it's the game of basketball.  Their relationships are forged through playing with and against each other of the years.  So when they say they are "friends," I think what they really mean is that they would relish the opportunity to play ball together, not that they'll be psyched to be on the same team so they can go to the movies together on non game nights.  

my thinking is that a group of superstars who are good friends would prefer to be together on the same team, fighting to win together (e.g. the Heat), than on separate teams that might have supporting casts more likely to help them win the most games.  

for example, wade or lebron could have gone to the bulls last season, but they chose to play together with chris bosh in miami.  the bulls with wade or lebron would have been a much better and more balanced team than the heat with their Big 3 and a bunch of scrap-heap players.  but as bill simmons put it at the time, lebron had a choice between loyalty, winning, greatness, and friendship (cavs, bulls, knicks, and heat), and lebron chose friendship.

  LeBron never decided that friendship was more important than winning. Those guys were expecting to walk away with the title, probably the next 5-6 titles. There's no way LeBron walks away from his hometown team because he's friends with certain players. I'm sure he had plenty of friends on the Cavs.

[PosImpos]

I'm with you, who.  I don't know much about European soccer, but I think the "friend" connection is way overblown in the NBA.  I'm sure a lot of guys have friends around the league, but you don't hear people demanding trades to get to go play with their friend, Ryan Gomes or Deshawn Stevenson.  

If Rajon Rondo where to play like an MVP candidate and lead us to a title this year, I'm guessing Dwight Howard would be dying to be his "BFF" come next off-season.

i don't think anybody is arguing that players prefer to play with friends even if they are just roleplayers.

the idea is that a superstar would rather play with another star who is also a friend than one who isn't.

So which do you think is a bigger factor?  Is it the fact that the other player is also a superstar and can help the team, and by extension the individual, gain success and glory, or the fact that he might be fun to "chill with"?

Also, these guys who talk about being friends, what is it that unites them as friends?  Surely, it's the game of basketball.  Their relationships are forged through playing with and against each other of the years.  So when they say they are "friends," I think what they really mean is that they would relish the opportunity to play ball together, not that they'll be psyched to be on the same team so they can go to the movies together on non game nights.  

my thinking is that a group of superstars who are good friends would prefer to be together on the same team, fighting to win together (e.g. the Heat), than on separate teams that might have supporting casts more likely to help them win the most games.  

for example, wade or lebron could have gone to the bulls last season, but they chose to play together with chris bosh in miami.  the bulls with wade or lebron would have been a much better and more balanced team than the heat with their Big 3 and a bunch of scrap-heap players.  but as bill simmons put it at the time, lebron had a choice between loyalty, winning, greatness, and friendship (cavs, bulls, knicks, and heat), and lebron chose friendship.

  LeBron never decided that friendship was more important than winning. Those guys were expecting to walk away with the title, probably the next 5-6 titles. There's no way LeBron walks away from his hometown team because he's friends with certain players. I'm sure he had plenty of friends on the Cavs.

he had plenty of friends on the cavs . . . who weren't superstars.

the point is that when presented with two good situations, a player is going to pick the team that has his friends on it, particularly friends who are also superstars.  

lebron, wade, bosh wanted to form a big 3 in miami, both because they are all very good and they'd have a great shot a title and because they are good friends and had been talking about playing together for a while.  lebron or wade could have played in chicago instead, but neither of them is friends with derrick rose, joakim noah, boozer, deng etc. the way they are with each other.  they hadn't been talking about and planning to play in chicago with rose or any of those other guys for the past few years.

they chose to play with each other even though an objective assessment would likely find that the bulls with wade or lebron would've been better.

[action781]

Side question,

How many people here who disagree with me and feel that these friendships are a significant factor ... how many are soccer fans? How many follow soccer teams closely and for quite some time?

Do any of you think this is any different to what we see in European soccer? With players moving clubs? Joining bigger teams with better chance for silverware?

Do you think those two situations are similar? Or is this "trend" in the NBA something different altogether? Why?

First, I'll say I'm not a soccer fan.

Now on to the question.  I think that at times the friendship angle is overblown.  In 95% of free agent signings, the priorities are money, winning, and role on team, like you said.  But, I agree with Nick in the cases he brought up.  Lebron and Wade have been talking about teaming up for a while b/c of their friendship (along with both being dominant players).  Chris Bosh, while a very talented big man, was absolutely not the best fit to go with them.  I know I personally posted quite frequently in Summer '10 that Amare would be a way better fit in Miami than Bosh, style-wise.  I think they were in cahoots with Bosh b/c of their friendship.  I think players like Amare knew this and that's why he signed with NYK so quickly that summer.

It was reported a while ago that CP3 and 'Melo agreed at the wedding to join and play together when they got the chance to.  Now you think that he wants to join and play with him b/c it's the best chance at winning...  So his previous quote would be a pure coincidence then?  He has said the only team he will sign an extension with is NYK.  Are there really NO other alternatives to winning than NYK?  Not even OKC?  I'd say there's a pretty good chance of winning long term there... what about Orlando?  LAC?  Yes, NYK is up there with all of them, but I think it's the friend thing that is making him say absolutely no way to anyplace but NYK.

[action781]

Step 3:  The season is over.  Deron Williams quickly bolts for New York, worrying that CP3 will beat him there.  

Step 4:  Howard is now the only superstar on the Nets.  He decides to opt out of his contract, and signs in Boston alongside CP3 and Paul Pierce.

One possibility not mentioned, which I think would be extremely likely here, is: OK, what if Deron beats CP to NYK.  Why doesn't Howard just stay in place in NJ and then CP signs there in place of Deron who has just left?

EDIT:  I suppose, actually, because Pierce in place and the prospect of Ray and KG coming back in min deals is more enticing than the surrounding scraps NJ will have in place.

[dtrader]

I'm with you, who.  I don't know much about European soccer, but I think the "friend" connection is way overblown in the NBA.  I'm sure a lot of guys have friends around the league, but you don't hear people demanding trades to get to go play with their friend, Ryan Gomes or Deshawn Stevenson.  

If Rajon Rondo where to play like an MVP candidate and lead us to a title this year, I'm guessing Dwight Howard would be dying to be his "BFF" come next off-season.

i don't think anybody is arguing that players prefer to play with friends even if they are just roleplayers.

the idea is that a superstar would rather play with another star who is also a friend than one who isn't.

So which do you think is a bigger factor?  Is it the fact that the other player is also a superstar and can help the team, and by extension the individual, gain success and glory, or the fact that he might be fun to "chill with"?

Also, these guys who talk about being friends, what is it that unites them as friends?  Surely, it's the game of basketball.  Their relationships are forged through playing with and against each other of the years.  So when they say they are "friends," I think what they really mean is that they would relish the opportunity to play ball together, not that they'll be psyched to be on the same team so they can go to the movies together on non game nights.  

my thinking is that a group of superstars who are good friends would prefer to be together on the same team, fighting to win together (e.g. the Heat), than on separate teams that might have supporting casts more likely to help them win the most games.  

for example, wade or lebron could have gone to the bulls last season, but they chose to play together with chris bosh in miami.  the bulls with wade or lebron would have been a much better and more balanced team than the heat with their Big 3 and a bunch of scrap-heap players.  but as bill simmons put it at the time, lebron had a choice between loyalty, winning, greatness, and friendship (cavs, bulls, knicks, and heat), and lebron chose friendship.

  LeBron never decided that friendship was more important than winning. Those guys were expecting to walk away with the title, probably the next 5-6 titles. There's no way LeBron walks away from his hometown team because he's friends with certain players. I'm sure he had plenty of friends on the Cavs.

he had plenty of friends on the cavs . . . who weren't superstars.

the point is that when presented with two good situations, a player is going to pick the team that has his friends on it, particularly friends who are also superstars.  

lebron, wade, bosh wanted to form a big 3 in miami, both because they are all very good and they'd have a great shot a title and because they are good friends and had been talking about playing together for a while.  lebron or wade could have played in chicago instead, but neither of them is friends with derrick rose, joakim noah, boozer, deng etc. the way they are with each other.  they hadn't been talking about and planning to play in chicago with rose or any of those other guys for the past few years.

they chose to play with each other even though an objective assessment would likely find that the bulls with wade or lebron would've been better.

The main part of the "friends" angle, is as you said...including the assumption that the teams they were choosing between were all good, and had a chance to contend.  No one is saying that players choose friendship OVER winning.  But, when they are in a free agent situation where they are choosing between a handful of destinations that are all largely primed to be contenders, then the presence of friends aids the decision a lot.

The guys arent just friends because they play on the court together.  Players like and dislike people on their same team, or on opposing teams.  They become friends for the same reasons that any of us could become friends...when they talk to each other, they enjoy the conversation, the have similar interests (beyond ball), etc.  Pro players(not just NBA), from the same and different teams, spend a lot of time together.  That time spent together (and a necessity to keep away from "outsiders" looking to capitalize on their fame) leads them to become good friends.

Although the nets record isnt helping to attract star players, theres also the fact, that theyre still the "NEW JERSEY" nets, dont have great facilities, dont have great nightlife (in New Jersey), etc.  Basically, the only thing that team has to offer at the moment is hope for a brighter future.  But thats basically the same as the celtics cap space.  It has the potential to be great, but if you sign there and things dont go right, you'll be in a bad situation.

[indeedproceed]

  So then what does Dwight do if CP3 ends up on the Knicks, decide between signing a vet min contract in NY and retiring?

Of course! He'll do one or the other because CLEARLY, Dwight Howard has no other friends or other options open to him.

Geesh BBall!!! Did I say that friendship was the ONLY determining factor? All I did was disagree with you that Howard wouldn't say "I'd sign with the Celts if they had CP3 and PP but wouldn't consider it if they had PP and Rondo" because friendships now DO definitely play a factor in determining where superstars end up. The evidence over recent years is significant that this is true.

My guess is that if DH can't get to play with CP3 somewhere he would stay in Orlando and lobby for Otis Smith to go out and get a very available Josh Smith who is making it known he no longer wants to be anywhere near Atlanta.

  I'd have to assume that if you know that CP3 is on Howard's "friends" list and Rondo isn't that you'd have a full list of his buddies.

The only people who really seem to like Rondo are people who have been on his team before.

  So people that have played with Rondo really like him (or really like playing on his team), but this is somehow a secret that other players in the league are unaware of?

Ha, I wish I would've seen this yesterday.

I appreciate you saying that I have inside info, frankly I'm flattered. I would like to dispel these rumors, I'm only basing my points on multiple documented stories, that paint Rondo as a passionate, knowledgeable, but at times standoffish, obstinate and frustrating teammate, and a guy (not unlike KG), who has seemed content to keep his professional (as in NBA players) circle of friends to his current and former teammates.

And to some people, that's appealing as a fan. I'm not saying Rondo is a poor guy to play with, or a bad guy to have on his team, all I'm saying is that within the confines of the actual conversation we were having at the time, the notion that some guys place a premium on playing with their superstar friends likely has some meat to it, and that Rondo doesn't seem to (at least in the published press releases) be a part of that clique.

Again, not a knock on Rondo, just a speculation based on multiple printed reports.

[dtrader]

I dont think it's that players dont have friends outside of their current and previous teammates, but that we as casual fans wouldnt know otherwise.  We only know which teammates are friends because they are always interviewed about each other (same with their previous teammates). 

Players are rarely asked "What other NBA players are you best friends with"?.  If certain players are brought up in an interview or in regards to a trade, then thats when we hear about their friendships outside of their team.  Any player could have any number of close friendships outside of his team, and none of us would know if they werent specifically asked about it or photographed together.  None of us actually know these guys.

[BballTim]

  So then what does Dwight do if CP3 ends up on the Knicks, decide between signing a vet min contract in NY and retiring?

Of course! He'll do one or the other because CLEARLY, Dwight Howard has no other friends or other options open to him.

Geesh BBall!!! Did I say that friendship was the ONLY determining factor? All I did was disagree with you that Howard wouldn't say "I'd sign with the Celts if they had CP3 and PP but wouldn't consider it if they had PP and Rondo" because friendships now DO definitely play a factor in determining where superstars end up. The evidence over recent years is significant that this is true.

My guess is that if DH can't get to play with CP3 somewhere he would stay in Orlando and lobby for Otis Smith to go out and get a very available Josh Smith who is making it known he no longer wants to be anywhere near Atlanta.

  I'd have to assume that if you know that CP3 is on Howard's "friends" list and Rondo isn't that you'd have a full list of his buddies.

The only people who really seem to like Rondo are people who have been on his team before.

  So people that have played with Rondo really like him (or really like playing on his team), but this is somehow a secret that other players in the league are unaware of?

Ha, I wish I would've seen this yesterday.

I appreciate you saying that I have inside info, frankly I'm flattered. I would like to dispel these rumors, I'm only basing my points on multiple documented stories, that paint Rondo as a passionate, knowledgeable, but at times standoffish, obstinate and frustrating teammate, and a guy (not unlike KG), who has seemed content to keep his professional (as in NBA players) circle of friends to his current and former teammates.

And to some people, that's appealing as a fan. I'm not saying Rondo is a poor guy to play with, or a bad guy to have on his team, all I'm saying is that within the confines of the actual conversation we were having at the time, the notion that some guys place a premium on playing with their superstar friends likely has some meat to it, and that Rondo doesn't seem to (at least in the published press releases) be a part of that clique.

Again, not a knock on Rondo, just a speculation based on multiple printed reports.

  I dunno. This whole topic is a little too far-fetched to generate this much discussion IMO. There's no evidence that Howard wouldn't want to play with Rondo, there's no evidence that the Celts have ever had trouble recruiting free agents with him on the team, in fact I don't think I've heard of any players ever saying (or intimating) that they didn't want to play with the Celts because of Rondo.

[indeedproceed]

I dunno. This whole topic is a little too far-fetched to generate this much discussion IMO. There's no evidence that Howard wouldn't want to play with Rondo, there's no evidence that the Celts have ever had trouble recruiting free agents with him on the team, in fact I don't think I've heard of any players ever saying (or intimating) that they didn't want to play with the Celts because of Rondo.

No, that's fair. I think its a completely one sided thing, in that there is no sign positive or negative that Rajon Rondo's presence on a team would aid or hinder the courting of Dwight Howard as a Celtic.

However, there are positive signs that Chris Paul would aid in acquiring Dwight Howard. That's pretty much the gist of it.

[BballTim]

I dunno. This whole topic is a little too far-fetched to generate this much discussion IMO. There's no evidence that Howard wouldn't want to play with Rondo, there's no evidence that the Celts have ever had trouble recruiting free agents with him on the team, in fact I don't think I've heard of any players ever saying (or intimating) that they didn't want to play with the Celts because of Rondo.

No, that's fair. I think its a completely one sided thing, in that there is no sign positive or negative that Rajon Rondo's presence on a team would aid or hinder the courting of Dwight Howard as a Celtic.

However, there are positive signs that Chris Paul would aid in acquiring Dwight Howard. That's pretty much the gist of it.

  Which is a far cry from Howard jumping on to the Celts if Howard were hear and refusing to consider it with Rondo on the team, which was being claimed as a likelihood.